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Electric Cars.

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eflightray21/01/2018 15:29:00
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Posted by kc on 21/01/2018 12:38:20:

.......................................................

I have just bought a hybrid car and halved my petrol bill doing the same journeys as before with the same size car.....

I also have a hybrid, a Hyundai Ioniq, great drive. Snag is it's too much fun to drive economically, though I'm still getting 55mpg.

An electric powered car should be designed from the ground up, not just modify an existing petrol/diesel model. The current trend in 'cross-over', SUV, boxy style models ignores the advantages of good low drag aerodynamics when it comes to economy.

Ray.

 

Edited By eflightray on 21/01/2018 15:30:51

Piers Bowlan21/01/2018 16:25:02
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Trying to second guess the future is impossible, as we all know. Personally, I think that the electric car has a great future, even if they are not quite there yet with the technology.

Electric milk floats, remember those back in the 60's? That was where the technology was 'back in the day' with their array of lead acid acid batteries and DC motors, no wonder no one thought there was any future in electric cars! So now we have Lithium ion cells with three times the charge density and five times the specific density (allowing for their higher voltage) plus motors that are 90% efficient. That is now...

Consider the future. Although studied in the 80's extensively, because of their huge potential, metal air batteries are now receiving renewed scientific interest on a global scale. Lithium air batteries for instance, have the potential to be a game changer due to a vastly superior charge density (5 X to Li ion) and Iron air batteries could potentially be extremely cheap due to the abundance of the raw material. At present there are serious problems like low cycle life (30 cycles) and poor reliability but new technologies like 3D printing and nano technology may be elements that solve the puzzle and makes electric car ownership a reality for everyone one day.

As for charging batteries, if there is the demand for the cars the infrastructure will follow. We may not get a lot of sun for solar energy generation at this time of year (!) but we are not short of wind and being an island surrounded by water, wave and tidal power has the potential to produce the extra energy we need (as well as provide employment). We just need to invest in it instead of building new, (old technology), nuclear fission reactors!.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 21/01/2018 16:29:54

Cliff 195921/01/2018 16:33:25
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I can see a time when nobody will 'own' a car anyway, you'll just call one from your app. and a driverless vehicle will arrive at your door, pop in your credit card and destination and off you go, simple. (As long as you can get a couple of models in the back of course) frown

Paul Marsh21/01/2018 16:41:27
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Electric cars won't be happening any time soon. They are impractical for general use, just short hops to the shops and back, insufficient charge points and confusing pay system.

For example, recently I was coming back from a show from the south and stopped at Hilton Park services on the M6 north. A chap was having trouble of getting his card to work. I spent a while chatting about said electric cars, but what happened is that he had I think a ABB payment card, or Siemens, which he'd used the same machine before. He was traveling up from Oxfordshire to watch a shop in Manchester. When he came to use his ABB card, it wouldn't accept it this time, as the machine had changed to Siemens and wasn't compatable.

He tried to use another machine somewhere else, but there were cars all using the only two charge points, but had enough range to make Hilton Park.

Of course, by this time, he only had 20 miles range left - far short to reach Manchester city center, and couldn't get his car to accept the charge, so stuck there. By this time, he was going to miss the show, an hour had passed before I arrived and he was making calls to his provider to see if they could get his card to work.

I don't think I will get a electric car. I got back into my car, started and drove off and filled at a station on the A500 with no problems.

Also, I keep thinking of electric cars as thus: UGHHH!!

1200px-reva_i_silver.jpg

Jez Saunders21/01/2018 16:59:57
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Looking to the near future there is obviously going to be mixture of oil and electric powered cars. Electric driven by the consumer being enviromently aware,making a social statement of wealth eg the Teslar etc , grants and subsidized product placement. This is driving the development of more efficient batteries ,longer life and the cost will be driven down making electric cars avaliable to the masses and hopefully of benifit to our fragile planet or more like the fragility of human kind and the animals plants we share it . The planet will be here long after we have gone!

At the moment I know electric companies are looking into ways of developing an infrastructure of charging points and how to smooth out periods of high demand, one idea is to use all the vehicles plugged into the system to act as a huge storage devise to smooth out the peaks and troughs of demand.

Also I understand batteries of the current generation of cars when they come to the end of their efficient life in the vehicle they can be used in "powerwalls" to store power from solar panels etc and have a useful live of perhaps decades in this guise.

Steve Hargreaves - Moderator21/01/2018 17:01:45
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If we think of the changes that have happened inside our own little hobby. 20-25 years ago we would point & laugh openly at flyers who turned up with electric models before enjoying the massive power advantage provided by our IC engines. Not quite the same now a days though is it? (& I speak as a dedicated IC flyer)

Very different I know but perhaps a pointer to where things are headed....look at the Tesla cars available now...expensive yes but so was the Motor Car when it was first invented

The issue about electric cars for me is a) where will all the power come from? & b) how will the existing wiring cope? I live in a little cul de sac with 8 houses in it.....if each house has 2 cars to charge up that's 16 great big batteries to charge overnight.....will the cables running down the middle of the road to each house suffice to carry all that power? Somehow I doubt it....

I don't think we should write off the hydrogen fuel cell or even burning hydrogen in a conventional engine as a possible way forward either. Right now there is little incentive to invest in such new technologies....in the future...who knows!!

Percy Verance21/01/2018 17:09:06
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At some point you'll have two choices Paul. You either drive an electric car, or you'll walk....... In another 20 years or so (or was it that far off, I can't remember) you probably won't be able to acquire an i.c. powered car of the type you'd prefer......... Now that the Government have drawn the line in the sand, the car manufacturers now know the timeline they're working to. In fact we'll almost certainly see considerable development way before then. As has been mentioned already, Volvo have stated they'll be producing 100% electric passenger cars far sooner than the UK Government's deadline. And as for the smokey old bangers still left on the road by then, I imagine the powers that be will be looking to tax them off the road asap........ Oh, and I'll have 50p on that filling station on the A500 not being there in 20 years time....... there will probably be a bank of EV charging points though.

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 17:19:45

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 17:20:32

Piers Bowlan21/01/2018 17:32:29
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Posted by Paul Marsh on 21/01/2018 16:41:27:

Electric cars won't be happening any time soon. They are impractical for general use, just short hops to the shops and back, insufficient charge points and confusing pay system.

1200px-reva_i_silver.jpg

This is the Mahindra Reva Electric car from Bangalore (marketed in the UK as the G-Wiz) . It featured lead acid batteries and a DC motor. The same 1960's milk float technology I mentioned in my post! (top speed 20mph) As dead as a dinosaur before it was marketed!

Your new friend's problem seemed to revolve around his credit card not being accepted rather than the viability of his car. If electric cars become cost effective without subsidy (purchase price, running cost, resale) then charging points will become more common than filling stations, and if the charge densities increase to something approaching the theoretical figures postulated (a big 'if' admittedly) perhaps 500miles vs 100miles, I think electric cars will become very popular.

Just think Paul, in a few years time you may be cruising around one dark night running on just fumes, passing endless EV charging points with not a single filling station in sight devil.

Phil 921/01/2018 17:39:04
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like them or not legislation and availability will eventually mean electric cars will be Hobson's choice. although I did fail to see the appeal of the driverless motorcycle featured on the BBC program "click"

 

Edited By Phil 9 on 21/01/2018 17:41:26

Percy Verance21/01/2018 17:45:10
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Quite Piers. It isn't easy to predict exactly where electric vehicle development might be in just a few years time. As model flyers we have seen huge strides in battery development when applied to electric flight though. It's probably safe to assume that most of the major players in the motor manufacturing industry will be investing sizeable sums in battery development and technology. As a case in point, the new Nissan Leaf has a much increased range over the old model. I think Renault are developing newer battery technology too, although their tiny micro car - the Zoe- is already capable of a near 200 mile range.

Percy Verance21/01/2018 17:47:09
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A driverless motorcycle Phil? About as much use a solar powered torch.........

Piers Bowlan21/01/2018 17:58:05
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Posted by Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 21/01/2018 17:01:45:

If we think of the changes that have happened inside our own little hobby. 20-25 years ago we would point & laugh openly at flyers who turned up with electric models before enjoying the massive power advantage provided by our IC engines. Not quite the same now a days though is it? (& I speak as a dedicated IC flyer)

Very different I know but perhaps a pointer to where things are headed....look at the Tesla cars available now...expensive yes but so was the Motor Car when it was first invented

The issue about electric cars for me is a) where will all the power come from? & b) how will the existing wiring cope? I live in a little cul de sac with 8 houses in it.....if each house has 2 cars to charge up that's 16 great big batteries to charge overnight.....will the cables running down the middle of the road to each house suffice to carry all that power? Somehow I doubt it....

150 years ago houses were lit with oil lamps and candles, then gas lighting and then electric arrived. More recently fibre optic replaced telephone lines (my apologies to anyone still living with dial up!). If the demand is there the infrastructure will arrive, including uprated electricity supplies. Paul said electric cars won't be arriving anytime soon. How soon is soon? Lithium batteries only became mainstream about 20 years ago. Mobile phones? Maybe not in my lifetime but certainly in my children's.

It wasn't that long ago when the Royal Aeronautical Society experts pronounced that airliners would never be able to cross the Atlantic ocean non-stop because of the huge amount of fuel required. They said the wings would break off under the weight. They hadn't anticipated the arrival of the jet engine and the pressurised cabin.

Phil 921/01/2018 17:59:02
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Posted by Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 17:47:09:

A driverless motorcycle Phil? About as much use a solar powered torch.........

I was being a little flippant but the technology allows the driver control unless the sensors detect danger and the computer takes control away from the rider. but it is capable of completing the whole journey without any input from the rider. future cars will have similar tech.

Glyn4421/01/2018 18:11:21
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Driverless cars (propulsion not as yet decided) may be the future. No you don’t own one, you dial one up, along it comes, off you go to wherever. Added bonus no parking worries, or charges. Repeat as required. I’m guessing in 15-20 years people won’t own a car except for petrol heads & motor sport enthusiasts etc.

Who knows, it’s just a guess.

Frank Skilbeck21/01/2018 18:24:11
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Posted by Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 21/01/2018 17:01:45:

The issue about electric cars for me is a) where will all the power come from? & b) how will the existing wiring cope? I live in a little cul de sac with 8 houses in it.....if each house has 2 cars to charge up that's 16 great big batteries to charge overnight.....will the cables running down the middle of the road to each house suffice to carry all that power? Somehow I doubt it....

But the cables are good enough to run every bodies electric cookers together for Sunday lunch, most people will charge overnight when the peak loads are down, especially if pricing encourages this.

Percy Verance21/01/2018 19:08:04
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Frank, as part of my recent major house renovation I had the main electricity supply cable moved from overhead to underground. And I couldn't help but notice the cable they used seemed a good degree heavier/thicker than the old overhead one. When I asked the engineer about this, he said they were using heavier cable now in anticipation of greater loads in the future. Make of that what you will.........

Paul Marsh21/01/2018 19:43:24
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IC engines won't be phased out because there are billions to be made from selling it. BP would go bust, as well as Shell, and there would be less tax from fuel for the government, society as we know would collapse, like Mad Max scenario.

Electric cars will be around, eventually, but not for a while yet...

Love to see how far I would get towing a caravan on electric, what about commercial vehicles, people going about there business. time is money, and I don't think a company will want to keep paying a site engineer to sit at a service station whilst his van/truck recharges, Yeah, right!

Won't happen.

Don Fry21/01/2018 20:13:30
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Posted by Cliff 1959 on 21/01/2018 16:33:25:

I can see a time when nobody will 'own' a car anyway, you'll just call one from your app. and a driverless vehicle will arrive at your door, pop in your credit card and destination and off you go, simple. (As long as you can get a couple of models in the back of course) frown

And not pay a great surcharge to have they greasy, smelly aircraft smells removed. And in my case loads of dogs as well. I would not get in my car as a volunteer.

Percy Verance21/01/2018 20:14:44
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So all the big players in the car industry, along with those involved in developing electric vehicle battery technology, are really wasting their time at the moment then Paul? I'm not sure if you've heard Paul, but it will be illegal to sell cars powered by internal combustion engines in another 20 years or so. I can't recall the precise year, but a cut-off point has been set by the Government....... And people whom use commercial vehicles to go about ​their​ - as opposed to there- business will almost certainly be catered for. Witness the Tesla electric articulated truck already being trialled in the US...... Stay in denial if it suits you Paul, but I'm afraid it's gonna happen. With your blessing or without. And don't lose sight of the fact that oil is a finite resource. At some point it's gonna run out......... And society functioned perfectly well for thousands of years prior to the advent of the i.c. engine Paul. And we'll find a way to carry on without it, believe it or not.

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 20:22:38

Don Fry21/01/2018 20:16:58
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lAnd Paul, look at a history of the Luddites. Technologies will come to fruit. In the case of the rollout of driverless technologies, it stats next year, or with a bit of drift, 2020.

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