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IDD1520/04/2018 19:17:32
65 forum posts

Re servicing:

Our Nissan Micra is £129 for a limited service and £169 for its full service. The Leaf is £85 for all services at the same Nissan dealership.

Re Regen Braking

This is not a separate system, the motor provides the regenerative breaking by becoming a generator. Instead of the motor taking power from the battery the rotating magnet generates power which is then fed back via the motor controller to the battery.

A benefit of this is you don't have to clean your alloys very often and brake pads last a very long time. As evidenced by the taxi company previously reported.

Re Transmission

Most EV's appear to use a single gear from the motor to step down motor speed to wheels. No other gears are generally required. An electric motor produces 100% torque at standstill (0 revs) hence why current EV's generally have good 0-60 times. Hence standing start comparisons with flash ICE cars tend to be a favourite party piece on motoring telly programs.

Motor/transmission parts count for the Leaf is probably very similar to the Tesla. There are various Leaf cutaway diagrams and YouTube Leaf strip downs on the web where you can verify this. There again it is on the web...

Very interesting the IPace video where they interview the JLR engineers and show off the motor. A 95% efficency for the motor across a 5:1 speed range is very impressive, and its so small. JLR have put a LOT of money into this.

Pip pip

idd

Don Fry20/04/2018 19:42:54
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2543 forum posts
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Who are JLR.

Martin Harris20/04/2018 20:04:34
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7689 forum posts
191 photos

From info gleaned in the previous posts, I'd imagine they are referring to Jaguar Land Rover.

Erfolg20/04/2018 20:24:16
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10929 forum posts
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IDDD15, the sad part about engineering is that nothing comes free. Other than with the perpetual motion advocates. I understood that the torque was high when not moving, dropping in an inverse relationship as the rotational speed increased. But, hey, being an ex clunky, we know nothing, other than our sparky brethren, would often provide a big motor with a lot of control gear. Even then much of the gain was elusive.

Again with regenerative breaking, all you need is a motor, nothing in-between to control the current towards the battery. Or does the bit in the middle come free.

It is easy to paint a picture where all is gains, in reality there is kit and losses and much of the gains postulated are not worth a bag of cold chips.

If electric vehicles come to dominate, due to their inherent superiority, that will be great. if it is purely down to politics and grants, that is not so good news. At present I think I can hear a can being kicked down the road to become some one elses problem.

To much is being sold on lower cost. Where this is being done by avoiding the taxes that other road users are required to pay, it is another thing. Get rid of IC vehicles and I would put money on taxes rising on electric vehicles, in one way, or another, to match or surpass the existing taxes.

Percy Verance20/04/2018 21:23:24
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6730 forum posts
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So let's get this right.

I choose to buy an electric car. I pay the necessary taxes upon purchase, including the first registration fee.

I wear the tyres out and go to get some new ones fitted. I pay for the tyres plus vat.

I charge the car up at home. My electricity bill arrives, and I see I've paid vat.

Eventually I need a service. I pay the nice man at the garage, and I see he's charged me vat on the servicing.

I need some new windscreen wipers. I go to Halfords. They charge me vat as well.

Now perhaps I'm missing something, but could you please explain where I might have avoided tax?

I've paid the full price for the electricity and everything else, so where exactly is the lower cost?

And before you say it, pure electric cars are road tax free as declared by H M Government. It isn't possible to avoid a tax that hasn't been imposed in the first place........

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 20/04/2018 21:35:26

IDD1520/04/2018 23:07:43
65 forum posts
Posted by Erfolg on 20/04/2018 20:24:16:

IDDD15, the sad part about engineering is that nothing comes free. Other than with the perpetual motion advocates. I understood that the torque was high when not moving, dropping in an inverse relationship as the rotational speed increased. But, hey, being an ex clunky, we know nothing, other than our sparky brethren, would often provide a big motor with a lot of control gear. Even then much of the gain was elusive.

Don't patronise me Erflog because I dared to inject some informed facts into this "discussion".

Again with regenerative breaking, all you need is a motor, nothing in-between to control the current towards the battery. Or does the bit in the middle come free.

As I said in my post (if you had bothered to read it properly) the motor controller takes care of this. It probably requires the controller to be fitted with three additional MOSFET components and there will be additional software required to integrate the regen braking , conventional friction breaking system and battery charger . Nissan have done an excellent job of this on the Leaf and the braking method/force is seamless in operation.

It is easy to paint a picture where all is gains, in reality there is kit and losses and much of the gains postulated are not worth a bag of cold chips.

Regenerative braking is hugely important for electric vehicles in order to maximise their range. You are forever banging on about EV range so to liken this to a bag of cold chips is quite frankly insulting.

If electric vehicles come to dominate, due to their inherent superiority, that will be great. if it is purely down to politics and grants, that is not so good news. At present I think I can hear a can being kicked down the road to become some one elses problem.

To much is being sold on lower cost. Where this is being done by avoiding the taxes that other road users are required to pay, it is another thing. Get rid of IC vehicles and I would put money on taxes rising on electric vehicles, in one way, or another, to match or surpass the existing taxes.

I do not think any existing EV driver who has contributed to this thread would dispute that the taxes will change in the future.

idd

Erfolg20/04/2018 23:12:54
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10929 forum posts
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Percy, you know that you have been subsidised if you drive an electric vehicle, at present. You know if you buy petrol that it is not only the cost of the actual petrol that is paid, it is mostly additional taxes, which is then subjected to vat. To be on an equal footing, all electric vehicles would and surely in the fullness of time will be required to pay a substantially higher price for recharging, also subject to tax, for environmental damage due to being recharged.

It is part of the UK road fund to also pay a sum of money on an annual basis to use a vehicle on the road, if IC. This set of charges are structured to extract a certain amount of tax on an annual basis. There is no justifiable reason for the present disparity to be allowed to continue into perpetuity.

Again those who purchase cars in this instance which have a set of characteristics, are required to pay a one of charge on the basis that the vehicle is deemed to damage the environment. It will come as no surprise that some reason will be devised to cover some groups of electric vehicles.

At present those who are driving electric vehicles are privileged, do you really believe that this situation will be allowed to continue?

If you consider my previous post, I am suggesting that taxes on electric vehicle will be increased to a broadly similar level that IC vehicles are now required to pay. If taxes are not forthcoming from us, their will not be any government or local authority services. That is no NHS, Education, National Defence, Pension Payments, or Bin collections, street lighting, before you start on services such as Social Services, Unemployment benefits, housing subsidies and many many more. In reality when so much of the tax is paid by the so called rich, there are a number of issues, they stop bothering to make money, move abroad, stop investing and so on. The reality is the rest of us will have to pay to taxes to drive about, be it IC or electric, it is sadly unavoidable.

There is an irony though for me, I have driven down a road today, where there is a new solar panel driving a sign that measures speed (in this case set at 20 mph smiley face), in addition a new set of white lines on a road whose surface that has recently rapidly deteriorated, with additional signage to warn of a variety of issues (pretty much imagined as unique to the location). Perhaps the amount of tax required could be reduced by a mass cull of the traffic department, leaving just those who maintain the road infrastructure, although I do not see it happening any time soon.

Erfolg20/04/2018 23:36:00
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10929 forum posts
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IDDD15

Seems I have struck a nerve.

It is a fact, that there is a cost in managing electrical energy, and any one who has been involved in projects knows that the promises are very rarely realised, at the levels suggested, that electrical and instrumentation, is not low cost, particularly where higher energy levels are involved, that even the reliability throws up some unexpected issues. Yet many projects could not be delivered without the technology. But it comes at a cost, measured in many forms.

IMO it will take some time before, every day issues such as torrential rain, very low temperatures, will not be an issue for mass produced electrical vehicles.

And yes, I have spent, in the past, something approaching years dealing with Instrumentation, power systems, that have required far more space than had been allocated, that spurious signals have interfered with particularly instrumentation and a lot of effort to get these systems to deliver anything close to what supporters and contractual stipulations had been entered into. The same is also true of the mechanical side.

As for patronising, as an ex engineer, I feel very much patronised for indicating how the real world of delivering differs from the spin of the PR specialists and arm chair engineers.

Kiwikanfli21/04/2018 00:35:29
191 forum posts
8 photos

I'm with Erfolg on this one, here in New Zealand our tax system is of course very similar to the UK because most of our Laws and Taxation system are based on the UK system. Consequently when we purchase petrol for our Internal Combustion vehicles a large part of which is deemed to be road tax. A large portion of this tax goes towards repair, maintenance and improvement of the roading network.

If they don't at some stage tax EV's who is going to pay for the above? Politically at the moment it is not in the Governments interest to raise a road tax on EV's, if they did imagine the hew and cry from the those with vested interests in promoting EV's as the future i.e.. Politicians, Manufactures, Electricity Suppliers and the Green Sector.

Don't get me wrong I am not against Electric Vehicles per se, but I believe in the basic premise of user pays and if EV's are not taxed then that is basically unfair to those who do.

Don't get me started on why our Government is spending large amounts of our tax dollars on building underutilized cycleways!!

Percy Verance21/04/2018 07:50:55
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6730 forum posts
133 photos

So, the subsidy on pure electric cars, the tax on petrol, road tax etc etc. They're all the fault of those whom might choose to buy an electric car then?  Of course they're not. Your gripe is actually with successive Governments over the past 100 years or so.......

What about the scrapping of stamp duty for first time house buyers? *Questionable* investment schemes and other such morally questionable dodges. Are they ok then? Nothing wrong with abolishing first time buyer stamp duty of course. It's needed to stimulate the housing market. The others are open to question, although I don't forsee any great change there. Fingers in pies and all that.....

Certainly, all what we know as *road tax* is supposed to fund the upkeep of the highway network, but that's probably an issue for great debate too.

And of course at some point the taxation will equal out. It will have to by default, because given time there won't be any combustion engined vehicles left on the road to impose taxes on......and it's likely there won't be any huge amounts of oil left to refine into petrol to run one.

I say again, buyers of pure electric cars are paying all the taxes currently being asked of them. The only gripes you seem to have are the subsidy and the fact they're presently road tax free. Your argument currently seems to be with Government policy and little else. Although your posts do hint at the implication that anyone who presently drives an electric car should on some sort of guilt trip........

If you prefer not to buy an electric car then don't. Others have the freedom to choose one if they wish. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/04/2018 08:22:35

IDD1521/04/2018 08:12:23
65 forum posts

Erf

You paint a very dismal picture of what we electrical and mechanical engineers can achieve. I infer from your post that like me you have been involved in many difficult projects, typically for one off specialised installations. To make comparisons to what is required for a mass market consumer item, which is what a car is, is not valid. Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) have built 200 prototypes for the iPace. Prototype to operational test rig in one has been the norm for me.

Re: Torrential Rain & Cold

After 6800 miles I am happy to report my Leaf has not skipped an electron despite the worst of the British weather including the Beast from the East. I cannot speak for other brands and countries.

Re: Electrical interference,

Don't think I've had any of that and I've driven close to some pretty big windmills in Scotland. However the Bluetooth link between my Nokia phone and the car can be a bit flakey at times.

Whilst I fully appreciate your caution re PR and "Elon Musk" spin your mind seems to have become very closed, which I find surprising from a fellow engineer.

idd

PS Re Earlier Milk float discussion

I am pleased to report a local milkman is now using a Nissan electric van for his round. Result, what goes around comes around!

Frank Skilbeck21/04/2018 08:18:18
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4038 forum posts
97 photos

On the subject of regenerative charging, my non-hybrId diesel car has this where when you come off the throttle it then charges the battery, everything to get the emissions as low as possible and fuel economy up, which at 48 mpg in a large car with a 185 bhp engine isn't bad. But you do wonder about all the complication.

Erfolg21/04/2018 10:06:03
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10929 forum posts
1042 photos

IDD15

Although most of my actual engineering life has been mainly one offs, I can see some of the issues for the mass market vehicle builders. For them a single fault common to all models is potentially a major financial and reputational hit.

Perhaps my main concern is the rose tinted view that all the incremental improvements deliver a gross saving, there being no offsets that result in a net.

My other concern, and it is not just applicable to electric vehicles, is that not all the innovations deliver a long term gain for the consumer. An instance was my wives TR7, which developed a dashboard display issue, I cannot remember specifically what. In that case it was a plastic film printed circuit. This could not be repaired by replacement, just tedious painting the tracks with a conductive material Other memories, were with respect to a project I was part of. In then what was my new role, many years later I asked about a specific piece of kit that I had specified. I was very disappointed to be told that it was great, until the electronic package failed. Repairs were unsuccessful, parts unobtainable, resulting in the drive and electronics being stripped out and another (different) system installed. Although most disappointing and ego deflating, this pales into insignificance to a multimillion pound plant, that was beset by electrical control issues, which together with other issues resulted in the plants closure, thank god I had nothing to do with it.

In most respects motor vehicles are relatively simple, from an electronic point of view and you would expect that great care is taken to separate power systems from electronic systems or components. For instance crossing at 90 degrees and never running parallel in close proximity. At the design stage everything seems hunky dory. Yet years down the road many cars do seem to succumb according to some sources to electrical issues resulting in a road side breakdown. Or in the case of my now long gone Porsche and wives Vauxhall would not start in the morning. It was from these thoughts that one time returning from Cumbria, going over Shap, I did think about the absolute drenching that would be taking place under the bonnet, as we ploughed through torrential rain. Whilst I observed that my usual +50 to the gallon, was dropping into the low 20s, as the tyres pumped gallons of water out of the way. Now I think an all electric car will be challenged even more, in similar circumstances. I also would have concerns with respect to salted roads and cables carrying currents and the longer term consequences.

IMO it is far to early to understand how the electrical car market will develop. At present it appears to me that it is primarily the grants and tax arrangements that tempts quite a small number of people to try electric cars. The vehicle producers are both responding to governmental pressure and edging their bets.

Yet if government and environmentalists were serious or without a idealogical driver, the immediate concern would be the diesel buses and small delivery vans in the cities, as again, figures indicate these are the major road vehicle polluters. Yet I find it hard to believe that wood burning stoves in London (and presumably else where) are also significant polluters of cities as has been reported.

Trevor Crook21/04/2018 16:11:14
681 forum posts
50 photos

Yes, it seems daft to power a local delivery van with diesel these days, very unsuitable for short journeys with the dpf. Yet Royal Mail have thousands of them. Certainly a case for gradually replacing the fleet with EVs and charging at the depot.

Regarding servicing, I would agree with Erfolg that the cost of corrective maintenance on an EV will be at least as expensive as an i.c. car. However, the cost of routine maintenance should be a fair bit cheaper, as supported by IDD15's experience. Presumably no lubricants or filters will need changing, bar the pollen filter. The brake friction surfaces should last much longer, although corrosion on the less used discs could be an issue - some i.c. cars suffer from this on their lightly used rear brakes.

It will be interesting to see how the taxation system evolves. The subsidy on EVs is designed to encourage their uptake, when sales are sufficiently bouyant this will be phased out. Similarly, VED will be applied. But in the next few years I'd expect EVs to reach price parity with i.c. cars, so the loss of subsidies won't matter. How will they recover fuel duty? Easy to do at charging stations, but extra taxation on domestic supplies would be unfair on non-motorists. I can see solar panels and storage batteries becoming very popular for suitable dwellings.

Erfolg21/04/2018 20:58:47
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10929 forum posts
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Trevor being flippant, they will colour code the electrons, then HM Customs and excise will check your battery.

Being less flippant, I can see that a way will be deviced that only specific plugs, will be allowed to charge electric vehicles, via a dedicated charge spur, which will be metered at a suitable rate.

In reality i have no idea, beyond the idea, that as we discuss there will be civil servants who are investigating methods now, along with legislation to criminalise those who attempt to avoid the regulations etc.

I am less convinced that that maintenance will be less onerous, I also suspect that there will be requirements that only "Suitably Trained and Qualified persons " will be allowed to work on specific aspects of the power systems, in due course.

There is a bit in todays paper which is suggesting due to the torque characteristics of electric motors, that their will be benefit from a gearbox, to deal with high speed, where the motors torque is low, yet a steep hill etc demands higher torque output. Although it was at pains to point out, there are a number of differing concepts being investigated and in use at present. There are so many announcements at present, there is little clear direction. How many have substance requires a degree of investigation and study that I for one cannot be bothered.

cymaz21/04/2018 22:07:26
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7686 forum posts
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At the moment the economics simply don’t stack up for me and electric. I’m seeing a 7 year old Zafira 1.6 petrol, £195 RFL, 40,000 miles doing 42mpg average. Trade in, I could get it for £5000....no brainer really!

IDD1522/04/2018 08:19:03
65 forum posts

Thought I'd post a link to the latest Fully Charged News show as it covers a number of topics we've discussed on here recently Jaguar iPace, buses, maintenance costs, hydrogen powered vehicles and lots of other good stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tprw8OAzWQE&t=26s

This in turn led to another news item.

https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=https%3A%2F%2Fqz.com%2F1169690%2Fshenzhen-in-china-has-16359-electric-buses-more-than-americas-biggest-citiess-conventional-bus-fleet%2F&redir_token=GDqaXBfDcvYphybWwfTbzcV9JmZ8MTUyNDQ2NTczOEAxNTI0Mzc5MzM4&event=comments

I think we are a bit behind the curve here in the UK!

Hope the links work.

Pip pip

idd

IDD1522/04/2018 08:47:37
65 forum posts

ERF

The TR7, now that brings back memories of wanting one of those as a spotty teenager. But that may have been something to do with Purdey (Joanna Lumley) driving one in the new Avengers! Now I am older and wiser I much prefer the TR6.

British Leyland was always rubbish with car electrics. A friends dad had the new Rover SD1 (in yellow) which we thought was really cool until he was repeatedly locked in or out of it due the new fangled central locking system!

I inherited my mum's Morris 1300 as my first car. Well remember having to use the plastic bag from my sandwiches wrapped around the distributor/coil when driving in the rain on the M62 back to uni....

Your experience of heavy rain over Shap was the same as ours on our way back from Scotland in the Leaf last summer (summer what summer?). I arrived at our planned charging/lunch stop at Penrith with a lot less reserve in the battery than I had anticipated. But the Leaf drove/swam through the rain without a glitch and there was no need to tuck into our sandwiches early.

It is certainly true that when driving an EV you become a lot more aware of the effects of wind, rain and topography on energy consumption. The rule of thumb when doing long EV drives is to work to 80% of capacity in distance between charges. From practical experience it is good advice.

idd

Tom Sharp 222/04/2018 08:59:05
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3018 forum posts
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I much preferred Emma Peel in her Lotus

Don Fry22/04/2018 09:10:13
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2543 forum posts
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Dream on lads, anyway they are about as wrinkly as us lot nowadays.

IDD, out of curiosity, you use your Leaf for more than a shopping car, and 6000 miles gets you used to it. How far between charge points with your 20% reserve?

Edited By Don Fry on 22/04/2018 09:12:11

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