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john stones 122/01/2018 17:34:03
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O.P sounds a bit political to me, but I'll have a dabble, less well off are already penalised, take a look at the Road Tax system on cars, new car and do 20,000 + mpa low road tax, old car doing not much mpa much higher road tax, and then it turns out the cars aren't the green eco friendly beasts they described as. Less mileage = less polution via brakes/tyres/emmisions etc. Put the tax on fuel = you pollute you pay, yep you would need to work something out for business or cost would get passed on, or maybe you could develop cheaper reliable public transport and encourage folk to use it. Ah but ?

ChrisB22/01/2018 17:35:15
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Posted by Tom Thomas on 22/01/2018 05:01:45:
Posted by ChrisB on 21/01/2018 22:52:12:

I don’t suppose it will John but still, I hate the thought of our farmer filling his fields with solar panels as that would stop us flying completely. At least crops can be overflown.

Can't believe you are being serious with that statement.

Selfishness is ugly.

Oh yes Tom, I am being 100% serious!

Unless it had passed you by, this is a model flying forum. Most people fly in the countryside, often from sites that have crops nearby. Clearly there are 'arrivals' in those crops and for the most part that is fine. That can't happen if the field is full of solar panels. I have been flying model aircraft for 27 years since I was 11. I consider it to not just be a pastime to dabble with now and then but part of my life. A purpose built workshop, a modelling van (dirty nasty diesel 2007 covering 2000 miles a year) and over 30 flyable models of all shapes and sizes totalling a small fortune, very much like many hundreds of other aeromodellers. I'm heavily involved in the running of a club including mowing, membership secretary and events.

So yes I am being serious and if that makes me selfish then so be it!

Edited By ChrisB on 22/01/2018 17:41:44

Andy4822/01/2018 17:36:59
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I think you've also got to look at battery degradation. If Mitsubishi guarantee their battery to have a storage capacity of greater than 72% after 8 years, that means one could reasonably expect a 3% degradation a year. May not sound much but it soon adds up. 30 mile rage from new, 25.7 mile range after 5 years, 23.5mile range after 8 years.

Andy4822/01/2018 17:43:57
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Posted by Geoff Sleath on 22/01/2018 17:05:04:

I was bit dubious about 'all the way to Scotland' I confess because we've always turned off at Scotch Corner and either gone across to Penrith and through Gretna or over Carter Bar and via Jedburgh though we went as far as Durham on Boxing Day.

Driving up to Scotland one day along the A1 north of Newcastle, and they were doing some sort of road repairs. There was a man with a red/green stop/go board! Haven't seen one of those for years. Then you drive down to Peterborough and its 4 lanes wide! The worst stretch is between the M18 and the junction with the M1 near Leeds.

The stretch up to Scotch Corner was planned to be upgraded to motorway standard years ago then cancelled, later restarted. Its still not finished.

Its not bad up to Durham, though usually very busy.

john stones 122/01/2018 17:46:42
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Posted by Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 06:47:38:

One thing is for certain, that being the pace of change. Not all that change brings will suit everyone. Such as was mentioned earlier regarding towing a caravan. Somehow I don't imagine being able to tow was very far up the list of considerations of those whom are involved in bringing about the changes new technology will introduce. Likewise, we as model flyers will probably need to evolve. Perhaps even flying alternative types of model in different locations out of necessity......... And yes Tom, I see challenges ahead for chain smoking, beer swilling individuals whom perhaps might like to tow a caravan with a smokey old V6 engined vehicle........Change we will though because we'll have​ to.

Edited By Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 06:55:05

I love an optimist, life can be hard enough without being doom laden, we will change ? absolutely...it'll be driven by other factors than what's best though. I want one springs to mind.

Percy Verance22/01/2018 18:21:10
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Matty, re: Buying a used Nissan Leaf. I read an article in (I think) What Car magazine regarding used Leaf purchase. It seems the older Jap built cars are less desirable because of their older, more costly type of battery pack. It also seems the earlier Leaf variants are not as well assembled as later (post 2013) UK built examples which have slightly increased range. Now there's a pleasant surprise. Basically, the Leaf seems a sound proposition if the car suits you. I'm not sure I care for the Miss Marple styling myself, but hey we're all different. Used values seem robust enough, compared to similarly sized conventionally powered cars.

Incidentally Matty, as it presently stands hybrid vehicles are taking just under 4% of the new market, with the Toyota Yaris Hybrid being the best selling model. And of that share of the market, about 10% are of the pure electric variety. So certainly a long way to go, but stranger things have happened. Many moons ago, an elderly motorcycle enthusiast was recalling the days when a Japanese company named Honda introduced the C50, a little step thru scooter for commuters. Hardened bikers laughed of course. After all, who'd want a Japanese motorbike? The rest of course is history.......

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 18:59:34

eflightray22/01/2018 19:17:26
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128 photos

This lunch time on BBC 1, program 'The A1: Britains longest road', an interesting comment by the police.

There was an accident, and one of the cars was a hybrid, a police office said they couldn't touch the car in case it was 'live' and they got electrocuted, They would wait until a break down guy turned up. surprise

I googled and found a Daily Mail story from 2012, headline --

First responders 'at risk of electrocution from hybrid and electric cars after serious accidents'

Ray.

Percy Verance22/01/2018 19:30:05
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There are risks as with any car Ray. Over the years, as I've travelled around, I've come across several accidents with not dissimilar elements of risk. I've seen a crashed Mitsubishi Galant (it was 35 odd years ago) which had been rear ended. Petrol was pouring out of the tank onto the road. About two years later I passed a Hillman Avenger (again, it was a while back) which had burst into flames while being driven. Thankfully, all four occupants had got out safely. All car accidents carry risk, full stop.

Andrew76722/01/2018 19:44:09
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Posted by Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 18:21:10:

Matty, re: Buying a used Nissan Leaf. I read an article in (I think) What Car magazine regarding used Leaf purchase. It seems the older Jap built cars are less desirable because of their older, more costly type of battery pack. It also seems the earlier Leaf variants are not as well assembled as later (post 2013) UK built examples which have slightly increased range. Now there's a pleasant surprise. Basically, the Leaf seems a sound proposition if the car suits you. I'm not sure I care for the Miss Marple styling myself, but hey we're all different. Used values seem robust enough, compared to similarly sized conventionally powered cars.

Incidentally Matty, as it presently stands hybrid vehicles are taking just under 4% of the new market, with the Toyota Yaris Hybrid being the best selling model. And of that share of the market, about 10% are of the pure electric variety. So certainly a long way to go, but stranger things have happened. Many moons ago, an elderly motorcycle enthusiast was recalling the days when a Japanese company named Honda introduced the C50, a little step thru scooter for commuters. Hardened bikers laughed of course. After all, who'd want a Japanese motorbike? The rest of course is history.......

Edited By Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 18:59:34

Percy are those the 2017 sales figures?. At December 2017 there were 115000 EVs of all types on UK roads.63% were Outlanders.

The increased range on the Leaf is down to 2 battery options, a 24kwh and a 30kwh. 2018 model will have 40kwh.

What the capacity of some of these batteries will be in 10yrs is anyones guess as there are no vehicles of that age to prove one way or the other. However, Mitsubishi and Yuasa, who make the cells, expect around 90% in normal usage. That is one of the reasons why the battery warranty increased from 5 to 8yrs,the packs are simply standing up better than expected.

As for the OPs original question. My PHEV cost £40k when new in 2014 and with the then subsidy of £5k, £35k. At 3yrs old and 35000miles i paid just under £17k so quite a saving. They will get cheaper and more people will be able to afford them.

Andrew

Tom Sharp 222/01/2018 19:47:04
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3525 forum posts
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It used to take me five minutes to our club field. Then the farmer installed solar panels and it now takes me 30 minutes to reach the new club field.

Therefore now, my car adds 25 minutes of extra pollution every time I go flying.

Geoff Sleath22/01/2018 20:30:39
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Posted by Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 19:30:05:

There are risks as with any car Ray. Over the years, as I've travelled around, I've come across several accidents with not dissimilar elements of risk. I've seen a crashed Mitsubishi Galant (it was 35 odd years ago) which had been rear ended. Petrol was pouring out of the tank onto the road. About two years later I passed a Hillman Avenger (again, it was a while back) which had burst into flames while being driven. Thankfully, all four occupants had got out safely. All car accidents carry risk, full stop.

In the 60s one of my brothers had a holiday job at the M1 services at Trowel (between J25 & 26). A Reliant Robin spontaneously combusted when the owner started it after re-fuelling. I think, because of the location, several fire engines attended the blaze. I saw it the day after and there was almost nothing left because the fibre glass body had completely burnt and the engine had melted. Wherever a lot of energy is stored in a restricted volume there's always a potential hazard be the energy in liquid or electrical form.

Our current car, a Mitsubishi Space Star, is about 12 years old and, although it's only done about 40k miles, we're thinking of replacing it in the spring. I dread the idea but it may be necessary. I fancy one of those cars that look like small vans with a decent amount of loading space for either planes or bikes. A hybrid or an electric is a possibility but it will certainly not be new. We already have hybrid bikes (legs and electric) now I've converted them

Geoff

Andy4822/01/2018 20:32:31
1380 forum posts
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Posted by Andrew767 on 22/01/2018 19:44:09:

What the capacity of some of these batteries will be in 10yrs is anyones guess as there are no vehicles of that age to prove one way or the other. However, Mitsubishi and Yuasa, who make the cells, expect around 90% in normal usage. That is one of the reasons why the battery warranty increased from 5 to 8yrs,the packs are simply standing up better than expected.

Well, it is a Mitsubishi. smiley

Piers Bowlan22/01/2018 21:04:03
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I believe the early Nissan Leafs suffered from rapid loss of battery capacity. They used a slightly different battery chemistry to other manufacturers. They also tended to use smaller capacity batteries that didn't like being roasted in the Californian sun when fully charged! I believe that there were a lot of warrantee claims.

It would be nice if the different manufacturers could get together to agree standard battery specifications. Interchangeability and economies of scale could be a game changer as far as reducing cost. Sadly I expect every brand to be stubbornly different, rather like the myriad of different RC Tx protocols!

Percy Verance22/01/2018 21:15:15
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Andrew, yes I think the figures are from last year. And yes, the latest Nissan Leaf is a completely new design, and has the improved battery pack. I've yet to see a proper pic of it, but from the front view I have fleetingly seen, it appears to have shed the frumpy Miss Marple styling.

Andrew76722/01/2018 21:18:09
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Percy

Have a look at "Fully Charged" on youtube. The road test has been done. A very different beast to the original.

Andrew

Percy Verance22/01/2018 21:25:40
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And perhaps that's no bad thing Andrew. The frumpy styling of the old model must surely have cost Nissan a good few sales. And there's little doubt they'll get less expensive. When it's new, technology always carries a price premium. I remember buying a 2500mah lipo battery pack when they first hit the market. It cost me £59.99. Similar packs can be had today for around £20.

Edited By Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 21:44:12

Mark Kettle 122/01/2018 21:30:31
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Battery packs on the Prius cars can be DIY improved, made better and then they give a longer life to the car, kits are available.

Percy Verance22/01/2018 21:31:45
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8108 forum posts
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Geoff. Be a little wary of those van based MPV jobs. They're excellent vehicles for carrying families, but less ideal for model aircraft. They have huge voluminous interiors of course, but that isn't what we need for carrying models. We need loading bay length, and these MPV's tend to fall a bit short here. An estate car usually provides a good compromise. I have a Focus Estate ( other small estate cars are available) and this offers me a load bay length of over 5 feet. You can of course split the rear seat and carry 3 people plus a long load.

Edited By Percy Verance on 22/01/2018 21:33:15

Percy Verance22/01/2018 21:37:58
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That's different Mark. It goes a fair way to ridding the Prius of it's Vicar's car image.

Cuban822/01/2018 21:48:04
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Posted by john stones 1 on 22/01/2018 17:34:03:

O.P sounds a bit political to me.

Made me laugh out loudlaugh.

From what I've been reading elsewhere since my OP, the expectation is that the depreciation on some electric vehicles is likely to be just as severe as with petrol/diesel - and currently (sorry) a used Nissan Leaf of about six years old can be picked up for around the £6K mark. So at about ten years old it'll probably be only worth a half or a third again. Not exactly 'old banger' money but within the reach of most people. Once 'upgrade fever' takes a hold, used prices will be guaranteed to tumble.

Bit of a question on batteries - you might pick up a vehicle for under a couple of grand with a dud power pack, but I guess that in the fullness of time there'll be plenty of third party suppliers who'll give the main dealers a run for their money both for repairs and spares rather like we have now.

The political angle is a worry though - with the revenue from fuel set to tumble in the future, what will they tax instead?

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