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Electric Cars.

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Trevor Crook15/10/2018 21:53:45
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Frank has mentioned something not often quoted - 1l of petrol contains around 10kWh of energy. Real-world range figures for electric cars are around 4 miles per kWh, which illustrates the relative effeciency of the electric drive train - the equivalent of travelling 40 miles on a litre of petrol. This goes some way towards offsetting the much higher energy density of the liquid fuel.

The range issue is close to being solved, and cost parity with ic will arrive within a few years. Trickier issues to solve are setting up an adequate infastructure and acheiving faster charge times. In the short term, there is a battery shortage that is holding back sales of evs.

Rich too16/10/2018 05:33:58
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My take on it. I was blown away by my friends Model S Tesla, the performance and technology is unbelievable. The range is 300 miles and therefore very practical - if you have off street parking. However, the styling is no better than a Mondeo (no offence), the build quality questionable, and the price hedious. Would I buy one if I could afford nearly £100k? No.

Percy Verance16/10/2018 05:47:10
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Andrew

Re: my boss's PHev.

My boss has his office 13 miles from where I'm based, so to see him it's a case of driving over there. On every occasion I've pulled up in the car park - which is immediately outside his office - I have seen the charge lead plugged in. Simply out of curiosity one day, I asked why it hadn't charged on the move, to which the reply was "it doesn't". And him being a bloke of few words whom prefers to get straight to the point, I didn't press the matter further.....

Erfolg16/10/2018 12:29:25
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In the case of Tesla, there is a very high probability that the business, with emphasis on how it is now structured and managed, will cease to exist in the very near future. Particularly that company is a long way from profit, additionally it is clear that the present owner personally has insufficient funds to purchase the company, then to run it.

The other major issue is that the majority of well established major vehicle producers have technologically caught up. Most tentatively produce low volumes, most probably as market and real world evaluation, before committing to any major market volume production.

I am at a loss that to understand the apparent (significant) disparity between the test centre evaluations and owners claims.

From news reports there seems still to be manufacturers concerns as to many issues regarding battery managent. That go well beyond just the charging issues, covering a very broad range of areas.

eflightray16/10/2018 15:29:54
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If I remember right the hybrid Hyundai Ioniq and Kia Niro use the same drive train.

Though the Ioniq is lighter, has better aerodynamics, so slightly better mpg and 0-60, and I believe cheaper.

I could depend more on shape for choice as the cross-over/mini SUV seem to still be the 'in thing'. I know which I prefer.

Ray. (Ioniq).

 

Edited By eflightray on 16/10/2018 15:30:49

Erfolg16/10/2018 16:02:13
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I find Trevor's contention somewhat questionable.

Generally electric motors are 70-80% efficient.

A Diesel engine is in the region of +55% efficient, some are now claiming similar efficiencies close to electric motors when run as a hybrid.

In the case of present situation, a Power station generates electricity with efficiencies of 30-40% for steam Turbine. This ignores the generator losses. Distribution lossless are on top.

So lets say all the electricity comes from the renewable, you would argue that it is only the distribution lossless need to be considered. Yet at present Wind Turbines consume significant quantities of energy in construction and the necessary infra structure and of course have finite life.

I am reminded that boiling a kettle be it either by gas or electricity requires pretty much the same amount of energy. Yet dependent on tariffs, a cuppa, using electricity costs in region of 4 times that of gas. What it really does show that generation and distribution of electricity costs a lot. That nearer you can get to using energy closer to the primary source, the higher is the overall efficiency. That the cost of IC fuel is mostly a range of high taxes.

The carbon foot print of gas versus electricity production is interesting, as at present, electricity has a greater foot print than gas. Yet listening to many activists, you would not think it.

Until some non biased assessments are made, by those who do not have an axe to grind, or safe hands etc. I have a gut feeling that a lot is smoke and mirrors. You may believe that all scientists can be relied on as " honest brockers", yet as i found out, when budgets have to be fought for and justified (rather than just handed out), they are the same as everyone else, they want to secure their job, section and department. Often promotion depends on getting grants etc. Think Hitch Hikers Guide and Deep Thought.and why the computer that would answer the ultimate question is built, to keep Loonsuawl in work, and you understand many scientists.

john stones 116/10/2018 16:36:55
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Pretty damning verdict on scientists and experts there, because they have personal interest, they can't be relied on for a true opinion.

Business and politicians are the font of all knowledge though. The Earth is Flat n the Sun revolves around us.

Erfolg16/10/2018 17:00:07
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As they say, you cannot trust anyone. Well not absolutely.

Just take the issue of we should eat less meat, as 30% of all Co2 emissions came from animals, Yet even that is a temporary fix, as the world human population is increasing dramatically. Do we then stop eating any meat? As the population increases, I guess all cats and dogs must go. We are told we need more immigration or population growth for the economy, yet the greater the population, the fix is more people.

Perhaps the problem with electric cars and Co2 emissions etc., is more about to many people world wide. Perhaps an economy that does not require more humans, and manages towards a world of a much lower human population.

It is an Elephant in the room that no one of importance or influence can see.

john stones 116/10/2018 17:08:14
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I'll get told of for being off topic but. Problems there for all to see, it's looking back when we shave.

Rich too16/10/2018 17:44:13
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I agree Erfolg, someone somewhere is usually on the make.

Frank Skilbeck16/10/2018 17:48:00
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The theoretical efficiency of a diesel engine is around 55% in reality you be pushed to get 45%, but that is running at a constant speed at optimum conditions, so for a road vehicle less again. A combined cycle gas turbine power station with gas turbines using the exhaust to generate steam for a 2nd set of generators is getting to 65%.

It also takes a substantial amount of energy in the construction of an oil production facility, drilling the wells, transporting it to a refinery and then selling it.

Erfolg16/10/2018 21:41:22
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Hmm

I will confess it is a 100 years (that is what seems) ago since i did heat engines. Also principally it was the Sterling, Carnot and another that at present memory fails.

I am pretty sure that the Diesel Engine can be made to be more efficient than the 50 or so present, if the fuel is suitable as it is the compression ratio, cannot remember all the terms, again a brain fade. I remember that in principal the Otto cycle is inherently less efficient than the Diesel by quite a margin.

What has really stuck with me is that the Sterling cycle was so great, that you wonder why it has not revolutionized the world of thermal engines.

It has struck me that often theory and reality can be very different.

I do believe that the Diesel engine can approach the levels of an electric motor, one day, if politically there are no obstacles.

In my case I do not think I am that bothered, as what tends to influence me is how things are now. My wife is considering a new car, yet I know that Diesels are out, that petrol is also time limited. From what I read, the jury is out on so much of the electric car market, from the chemistry of the cells in electric cars, that manufacturers of the vehicles are not ever (not this week) on the method of connecting and arranging the cells, and the list goes on. Hybrids seem to have a lot more going for them in practical terms. But all are to expensive and seem unlikely to save the planet. So I am trying to delay, until rational judgments can be made or assessed.

Dave Hess17/10/2018 16:01:00
224 forum posts
17 photos
Posted by Erfolg on 16/10/2018 21:41:22:

I do believe that the Diesel engine can approach the levels of an electric motor, one day, if politically there are no obstacles.

Anything is possible, but why stop there. One day, long after we're gone, they'll be able to convert mass directly into energy, so you can put one gram of poop int your device and get a lifetime of driving from it; however, when they get to that stage, there will be no need to drive. Everybody will live a virtual existence not constrained by the shortcomings of the human body and the world around it.

Some say that we're already there, that we're all part of the virtual reality of something somewhere else in the Universe, so best not to worry about these things. We can't change much on our own. Just do what you think is right and be kind to other people, just in case you get to meet St Peter at the pearly gates. It would be terrible if your entrance was refused and you had to take the down elevator.

Mind you, somebody told me that it wasn't bad down there. when he arrived everybody was standing up to their waist in excrement, but they seemed to be having a great time drinking coffee while nice rock music was playing and there were naked dancing girls on a stage above. Then, a bell rang and the devil appeared and shouted, "Alright, tea-break over. Back on your heads".

Percy Verance17/10/2018 19:05:37
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7071 forum posts
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A novel look at the future there Dave, but will trains run on time?...............

eflightray

I'll gladly concede the Hyundai Ioniq is a nicer looking car, but unfortunately being slightly mobility impeded by arthritis, I personally would need to factor in how easy/difficult it is to get in and out of..... and it's here cars such as the Kia Niro tick more boxes for me. I quite like the look of the new Nissan Leaf, but whether the practicalities and driving position would work for me, I'm unsure. I am beginning to experience some difficulty getting in and out of my Focus, so I'll need to look at and consider practical vehicles offering a higher driving position. That said, I might try a Kia Niro and hate it, but a recent ownership poll of the most satisfying cars to own placed the Niro at number 5 with a satisfaction rating of over 90%.

There were also four Skodas in the top ten, all with ratings around 90% or more. I really like the new Skoda Karoq, but as yet there is no hybrid. It's coming in 2019 I believe.......

Edited By Percy Verance on 17/10/2018 19:35:20

Robert Cracknell17/10/2018 20:30:07
122 forum posts
2 photos
All this is very interesting but with the current (sorry!) crop of electric cars barely being able to propel themselves has anyone considered how the caravanning community will fare?? Still, at least you won't have to worry about accommodation while recharging!

Edited By Robert Cracknell on 17/10/2018 20:30:42

Percy Verance17/10/2018 20:36:38
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7071 forum posts
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Robert

A Jaguar i Pace passed me on a stretch of dual carriageway near my home a couple of weeks ago. It didn't seem to be having any propulsion difficulties.........

I have no idea what'll happen with regard to the caravan fraternity etc. I guess it's a situation not disimilar to cart makers and wheelwrights a century or so ago. I can't offer much of an answer I'm afraid........ I guess time will tell.

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 17/10/2018 20:46:51

john stones 117/10/2018 20:47:32
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Electric caravans, we already have "static" ones.

Denis Watkins17/10/2018 20:54:59
3133 forum posts
144 photos
Posted by Robert Cracknell on 17/10/2018 20:30:07:
All this is very interesting but with the current (sorry!) crop of electric cars barely being able to propel themselves has anyone considered how the caravanning community will fare?? Still, at least you won't have to worry about accommodation while recharging!

Edited By Robert Cracknell on 17/10/2018 20:30:42

I only have superficial knowledge of the tech, but Diesel Engine investment and manufacture is huge, with the so called two floor high

"Cathedrals" in the belly of every ship at sea, massive diesel engines, I doubt they can wait months to plug in and charge.

Large Diesel Engines will have to continue, though Cleaner, and they will sort that out, they have too

Tiny electric cars will dominate carrying just a driver, and maybe a passenger occasionally

But where tonnage needs to be moved, then Cleaner Diesels will continue and develop

Tim Chambers17/10/2018 21:25:29
18 forum posts
Posted by Robert Cracknell on 17/10/2018 20:30:07:
All this is very interesting but with the current (sorry!) crop of electric cars barely being able to propel themselves has anyone considered how the caravanning community will fare?? Still, at least you won't have to worry about accommodation while recharging!

Edited By Robert Cracknell on 17/10/2018 20:30:42

Percy Verance17/10/2018 21:58:20
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7071 forum posts
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So, it appears there isn't much of an issue after all then.......

Not sure I go a bundle on the gull wing doors though. Not so good after you've slotted neatly into your Asda parking bay between two other cars........

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 17/10/2018 22:01:48

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