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John Stainforth22/01/2018 21:51:14
310 forum posts
38 photos

I have had a Toyota Prius in the US for twelve years and the mpg is almost as good now as it was when new. I can't really detect any drop-off in battery performance. The whole drive train and battery was originally guaranteed for eight years. The interior volume and loading length is surprisingly good, and highly suitable for model aircraft.

You don't need to be a vicar to drive a Prius, just a little pious.

john stones 122/01/2018 21:53:41
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10605 forum posts
1480 photos
Posted by Cuban8 on 22/01/2018 21:48:04:
Posted by john stones 1 on 22/01/2018 17:34:03:

O.P sounds a bit political to me.

Made me laugh out loudlaugh.

From what I've been reading elsewhere since my OP, the expectation is that the depreciation on some electric vehicles is likely to be just as severe as with petrol/diesel - and currently (sorry) a used Nissan Leaf of about six years old can be picked up for around the £6K mark. So at about ten years old it'll probably be only worth a half or a third again. Not exactly 'old banger' money but within the reach of most people. Once 'upgrade fever' takes a hold, used prices will be guaranteed to tumble.

Bit of a question on batteries - you might pick up a vehicle for under a couple of grand with a dud power pack, but I guess that in the fullness of time there'll be plenty of third party suppliers who'll give the main dealers a run for their money both for repairs and spares rather like we have now.

The political angle is a worry though - with the revenue from fuel set to tumble in the future, what will they tax instead?

Ah good, now you've got humour cracked, work on your irony. wink

Trevor Crook22/01/2018 21:55:51
855 forum posts
65 photos

I did consider a used Leaf as a second car. As stated above, depreciation is epic, so they are not too expensive. I decided against it in the end, too afraid of the unknown. But I just had another look on Autotrader, and £8k or less seems the going rate for a 2012 model, the first one I looked at had 18,000 miles. A Focus with similar mileage was only a few hundred pounds less.

The important thing to look for is "battery owned". Nissan (and Renault) lease out the battery on many of their Leafs (and Zoes), which means you make a monthly payment, around £60 I think, to lease the battery. This was intended to remove the fear of battery degradation, as the manufacturer will pay for a new battery when it loses (I think) 25% of its capacity. You can cover a fair mileage on £60 worth of liquid fuel, so I don't think the economics of battery leasing add up. The batteries have proven to be more durable than anyone expected.

The Leaf has an indicator that shows overall battery capacity. It's on the far right of the instrument binnacle, and a battery with full capacity will show 12 bars illuminated. Most cars I have seen for sale that have pictures of this still show the full 12 bars.

So, I conclude that buying a used EV is not a lot more than a petrol or diesel. Routine running costs should be low as there is less mechanical stuff to go wrong, zero VED and cheap fuel if you can charge at home. Routine servicing should also be less, although I haven't looked into that. However, when it does need work, you probably won't be able to take it to the mechanic around the corner, it'll likely be a main dealer visit, which will be expensive.

It will be fascinating to see how all this pans out over the next few years.

Andrew76722/01/2018 22:21:33
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809 forum posts
4 photos

Trevor

Interesting comment near the end of your post. Outlander PHEV owners forum advice is to only buy from and have serviced by a main dealer. I think i pay £22 a month for the service plan.

Andrew

MattyB23/01/2018 01:06:11
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1951 forum posts
30 photos
Posted by Cuban8 on 22/01/2018 21:48:04:
Posted by john stones 1 on 22/01/2018 17:34:03:

O.P sounds a bit political to me.

Made me laugh out loudlaugh.

From what I've been reading elsewhere since my OP, the expectation is that the depreciation on some electric vehicles is likely to be just as severe as with petrol/diesel - and currently (sorry) a used Nissan Leaf of about six years old can be picked up for around the £6K mark. So at about ten years old it'll probably be only worth a half or a third again. Not exactly 'old banger' money but within the reach of most people. Once 'upgrade fever' takes a hold, used prices will be guaranteed to tumble.

Apparently it's much, much worse than that - 72% depreciation in year 1 according to WhatCar! Ouch. Looking at dealer prices that may still be a bit pessimistic, but you'd still have to be bonkers to buy a new one, hence why we have delayed replacement of my wife's car until there are new model Leafs available in the used market in ~18 months. Only the Zoe, Renault's EV, is worse.

Edited By MattyB on 23/01/2018 01:16:06

Tom Thomas23/01/2018 03:49:48
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315 forum posts
207 photos
SoPosted by ChrisB on 22/01/2018 17:35:15

Unless it had passed you by, this is a model flying forum. Most people fly in the countryside, often from sites that have crops nearby. Clearly there are 'arrivals' in those crops and for the most part that is fine. That can't happen if the field is full of solar panels. I have been flying model aircraft for 27 years since I was 11. I consider it to not just be a pastime to dabble with now and then but part of my life. A purpose built workshop, a modelling van (dirty nasty diesel 2007 covering 2000 miles a year) and over 30 flyable models of all shapes and sizes totalling a small fortune, very much like many hundreds of other aeromodellers. I'm heavily involved in the running of a club including mowing, membership secretary and events.

So yes I am being serious and if that makes me selfish then so be it!

Edited By ChrisB on 22/01/2018 17:41:44

It hasn't passed me by at all, so what you are saying is, farmers have less rights than hobbyists?

Your passion, money and club involvement (and yes this is coming from a fellow hobbyist) pale into insignificance when compared to a farmer who's land is his bread and butter not just a pastime, let's call it what it is, it's a "pastime" it's not a way of life, it's not the be all and all of country life, whereas as farmers life is.

I'm sorry you feel that that you're many models and modes of transporting them are more important...... says a lot about you.

Percy Verance23/01/2018 06:40:51
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8108 forum posts
155 photos

C8, once the revenue from petrol and diesel begins to diminish, the Government will undoubtedly look at the other motoring related consumables/expenses on which they could consider imposing duty/further duty. Tyres or windscreen wipers for example could have additional duty on them, as could vehicle repairs and servicing. Things like driving lessons could also be hit. And of course there's the new favourite, road tolls.......H M Government simply has​ to get this revenue from somewhere to get all their figures stack up. Who said Dick Turnip was dead?

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 23/01/2018 06:50:24

Phil 923/01/2018 07:25:37
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4284 forum posts
229 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 23/01/2018 06:40:51:

C8, once the revenue from petrol and diesel begins to diminish, the Government will undoubtedly look at the other motoring related consumables/expenses on which they could consider imposing duty/further duty. Tyres or windscreen wipers for example could have additional duty on them, as could vehicle repairs and servicing. Things like driving lessons could also be hit. And of course there's the new favourite, road tolls.......H M Government simply has​ to get this revenue from somewhere to get all their figures stack up. Who said Dick Turnip was dead?

Edited By Percy Verance on 23/01/2018 06:50:24

I wonder if we will see GPS tracking become compulsory and a pay by mile system be put in place. The data could also be used to generate speeding fines or even limit the top speed of the vehicle to match the speed limit. In theory police may have the ability to remotely stop a vehicle if smart technology is introduced

john stones 123/01/2018 07:30:35
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10605 forum posts
1480 photos

I think they might charge for charging Percy, lectric doesn't grow on trees you know. idea

Almost reduced me to tears this thread, farmers growing solar panels, people at their wits end about depreciation on their second car, poor getting left behind again, and now I find out Dick Turpins dead. sad Still it was bound to end badly, "Stand And Deliver" ain't your best option when a motor cars approaching. kulou

Glyn4423/01/2018 08:10:23
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701 forum posts
92 photos

Interesting and thought provoking thread this. If transport follows fliers at my club the future is electric. I reckon about 85% fly electric. (110 members approx.)

Me, I’m going to keep my Jag. for now, it’s a nice ride.

Don Fry23/01/2018 09:31:24
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3955 forum posts
42 photos

Arrrrrrr John, but it weren't Dick Turpin daft enough to make his stand before a motor car. It were that daft village idiot, Dick Turnip. Get yer highwaymen right.

Trevor Crook23/01/2018 09:53:50
855 forum posts
65 photos

Matty, What Car's depreciation figures are usually pessimistic as they are based on buying the car new at full retail, which virtually nobody does, especially at the moment. Agreed that they are pretty severe on EVs though. Of course, this means you can pick up a year old Zoe at a bargain price, and it will still have 3 years of the 4 year Renault warranty left. Unfortunately they all seem to be tied into the silly leased battery scheme. I don't know if you can choose to buy the battery, or how much it costs.

A Zoe is saving money for a friend of my son though. He had been paying for a rail season ticket to commute to London, but worked out it would cost less to lease a 40kWh Zoe. This comfortably has the range to take him to and from work (150 miles plus, real world), but there's a free charging point at work so he tops up there. Probably not a nice journey, but he gets an extra car to use at the weekend, which he and his wife never had when he used the train.

Cuban823/01/2018 09:57:32
2727 forum posts
13 photos

I'm off to work on my coppery and goldy laugh..........................subject closed now....................next car will be hybridsurprise (perhaps).

The Wright Stuff23/01/2018 10:03:20
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1381 forum posts
226 photos
Posted by Cuban8 on 23/01/2018 09:57:32:

I'm off to work on my coppery and goldy laugh..........................subject closed now....................next car will be hybridsurprise (perhaps).

Ha ha. Is that your cunning plan? cool

ChrisB23/01/2018 10:44:17
1220 forum posts
34 photos
Posted by Tom Thomas on 23/01/2018 03:49:48:
SoPosted by ChrisB on 22/01/2018 17:35:15
 

Unless it had passed you by, this is a model flying forum. Most people fly in the countryside, often from sites that have crops nearby. Clearly there are 'arrivals' in those crops and for the most part that is fine. That can't happen if the field is full of solar panels. I have been flying model aircraft for 27 years since I was 11. I consider it to not just be a pastime to dabble with now and then but part of my life. A purpose built workshop, a modelling van (dirty nasty diesel 2007 covering 2000 miles a year) and over 30 flyable models of all shapes and sizes totalling a small fortune, very much like many hundreds of other aeromodellers. I'm heavily involved in the running of a club including mowing, membership secretary and events.

So yes I am being serious and if that makes me selfish then so be it!

Edited By ChrisB on 22/01/2018 17:41:44

 

It hasn't passed me by at all, so what you are saying is, farmers have less rights than hobbyists?

Your passion, money and club involvement (and yes this is coming from a fellow hobbyist) pale into insignificance when compared to a farmer who's land is his bread and butter not just a pastime, let's call it what it is, it's a "pastime" it's not a way of life, it's not the be all and all of country life, whereas as farmers life is.

I'm sorry you feel that that you're many models and modes of transporting them are more important...... says a lot about you.

 

At no time have I mentioned rights, importance, country life or bred and butter. What I said was it would be a shame if a farmer filled his fields with solar panels. He is perfectly entitled to do that if he wishes, but that would cease aeromodelling activities which from my perspective and many thousands of others across the country would be a bad thing! It obviously doesn't bother you, but it would bother me!

Its not my way of life, but part of my life, a significant part, like many for which its a serious hobby that people do whenever they have a spare moment. That is evident at the shows, be it the large expensive and complex models, caravan and camping equipment, vans/vehicles and event attendance every weekend by many pilots and organisers. For many ts not just something they do when they're bored and there's nothing on the TV.

 

Edited By ChrisB on 23/01/2018 10:45:00

Edited By ChrisB on 23/01/2018 10:53:07

Bob Cotsford23/01/2018 11:16:35
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7984 forum posts
444 photos

A few points occur to me reading the last few posts:

If a model lands in and is retrieved from a farmers crop little or no damage need be done. If the model lands in a solar farm the possible cost of damage done could be very high, what does a large industrial panel cost, including the cost of fitting it?

If a farmer fills his field with solar panels, is he still a farmer?

If the police are given the ability to remotely stop a vehicle, how long before the villains learn how to do the same? Old Dick Turpin will be back in business wink

Piers Bowlan23/01/2018 11:29:17
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1871 forum posts
45 photos
Posted by Trevor Crook on 23/01/2018 09:53:50:

A Zoe is saving money for a friend of my son though. He had been paying for a rail season ticket to commute to London, but worked out it would cost less to lease a 40kWh Zoe. This comfortably has the range to take him to and from work (150 miles plus, real world), but there's a free charging point at work so he tops up there. Probably not a nice journey, but he gets an extra car to use at the weekend, which he and his wife never had when he used the train.

This is easy to believe with the very high cost of railway season tickets. Brighton-London Bridge is £450 month and as for the car being 'not a nice journey', at least you will get a seat and the heater will probably work! Also, no leaves on the line, the 'wrong kind of snow' or cancelled services due to 'staff shortages' or 'industrial action'. Trains are not quick either. I took the train the other day from the South coast to The London Boat Show at the Excel Exhibition Centre. It was two and a half hours each way- never again! If I go next year I will take the car.

The problem with cars is usually the cost of parking in London, although your friend is fortunate in having a workplace parking space - and charging point. Electric is starting to make sense.

Andy4823/01/2018 11:32:52
1380 forum posts
1 photos

Thinking of the solar farms in farmers' fields, if the solar array is greater than 9 square metres, then the farmer needs planning permission, and as a model club you would be able to put your objections in to the development.

Jez Saunders23/01/2018 12:19:22
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111 forum posts

Food and fuel will still need to be grown and more in the future, please don't worry about losing areas to fly ! We are getting off topic !

Don Fry23/01/2018 12:34:09
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3955 forum posts
42 photos

Bob, we used to have the ability to stop villains. Low tech ramming job. Now it's the villains do it . Called an insurance scam. Sorry about an off topic post.

Would Tom Thomas and Chris B stop arguing please.

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