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Percy Verance09/07/2019 20:30:23
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Grahan. Some info here re: the German company whom are developing new battery technology...... I lifted this from the site. Make of it what you will.

 

The German technology company Innolith AG is working on a high-density battery that could deliver more than 600 miles of range if used in an electric car.

The firm claims its battery will be the first in the world to squeeze 1kWh of energy into a single kilogramme of battery mass, potentially unlocking long-range electric driving with a much reduced weight penalty.

For comparison, the 64kWh lithium-ion battery in the Kia e-Niro – which officially returns 282 miles of range – weighs 457kg, giving it an energy density of 0.14kWh per kilogramme.

Meanwhile, Innolith claims its new battery will be cheaper to produce owing to an absence of “exotic and expensive materials” often used in conventional battery cells.

It also uses a non-flammable inorganic electrolyte, reducing the risk of fire.

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The company says charging times won’t differ from current standards, although it does expect a full charge to require plugging in overnight.

The technology is being developed at Innolith AG’s lab in Germany, however it could be between three and five years before it can be used commercially.

When it does launch, it'll enter the market through a pilot scheme in Germany, with licensing agreements with manufacturers and other battery companies to follow after.

Only the forthcoming Tesla Roadster – which is due in 2020 – is thought to be targeting a range in excess of 600 miles. However, it’s possible it could require a 200kWh battery in order to hit that benchmark.

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 09/07/2019 20:37:50

Tom Sharp 209/07/2019 22:17:26
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Germany are increasing the use of coal fired power stations, and some low quality coal at that, so their power batteries will be carbon positive.

Percy Verance10/07/2019 06:34:13
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Well that's unlikely to happen here in the UK Tom, there are virtually no coal mines left........ Much to the disdain of Arthur. The UK is headed in the opposite direction, with 80% of our electricity being from renewables by 2030 say the National Grid.

Remember Arthur? He started off with a little house and a big union. Now he's in his big house and it's a tiny union...... Actually no. The last I read he was in a rented flat with an eviction notice outstanding........

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 06:41:38

Keith Miles 210/07/2019 13:26:36
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What the "80% renewables by 2030" statement misses out is any realistic expectation that it will meet future energy demands.

At present, irrespective of all the hype, I am still to be convinced that battery powered vehicles, or battery powered anything for that matter, offers a realistic and practical long term solution either in terms of efficiency, convenience or reductions in environmental impact.

Privately owned electrically powered vehicles will, for a number of simple reasons, have a limited market for the foreseeable future, in my view. Cost and lack of off-road parking for charging (or a standardised widespread and readily accessible charging infrastructure) will, alone, limit take-up and thereby impede any timely progress in reducing the price of acquisition. Catch 22?

As for the argument, that I read somewhere, that in the early days of the motor vehicle there was little infrastructure to support it, that fails to take into account that the world was a very different place then. In particular, private transport was, arguably, an unnecessary luxury confined to the wealthy which is certainly not the case today!

Whilst it might be true that what you have never had you never miss, it is equally the case that we are all reluctant to give up what we already have for something unfamiliar which, from our personal standpoint, would be, or might be regarded as, a less convenient, less flexible and less practical alternative.

Currently, I wonder if, in fact, the days of widespread private vehicle ownership are numbered!

Percy Verance10/07/2019 13:41:34
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Well certainly the days of i.c engind passenger car ownership are numbered. It won't be legal to sell or market them after 2040.......

The final line of your post hints at everyone using public transport?  Well that's almost funny. Where I live, in a relatively small rural village, the bus service has all but disappeared. There are just 3 per day. Morning, mid-day and one later, about 5 or 6 o clock. That's it. Public transport is hunky dory when all you need is to get there, but if you want to bring 6 bags of cement or half a dozen 2.1 metre lengths of 3x2 home from the nearest builder's merchant (before you ask, they only deliver trade orders) then you'd be stuffed on a bus because they'd not let you on.

I do find it strange you feel the charging infrastructure will never be sufficient. The majority - 80% - of present electric car owners charge at home. Why might you think this percentage may not stay the same when electric cars begin selling in much greater numbers than at present? Surely most EV owners will carry on home charging? 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 14:11:00

Don Fry10/07/2019 13:49:58
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Now I accept I may be wrong, and I have no intention of checking, but does the aspiration of "80% renewables by 2030", bandied about for several threads, not have a bit missing, "and other low carbon sources" , on the back of the sentence.

The missing bit covers the Nuclear Fission stations. Cheap, clean, safe, no mess afterwards.

Edited By Don Fry on 10/07/2019 13:51:12

Nigel R10/07/2019 15:09:14
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Don, if you mean cheap, clean, no mess, then I'm not sure you mean either fission or fusion.

Fission is not particularly cheap, although it is clean, but does leave rather a lot of neutron activated mess to deal with (unless the breeder types become more widespread).

As for fusion, yes, clean, no mess, but, definitely not cheap. Time wise, even ITER isn't scheduled for first plasma operation until 2025. The next generation commercial demonstrator won't start construction until 2030 at least. The following generation of fusion reactors that might be commercial grid viable, if I'm lucky, I might see happen in my lifetime...

Don Fry10/07/2019 16:47:08
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Nigel you are quite right, and I was being ironic that fission reactors can even be in the same sentence as renewables as an answer to any sort of problem, except the enforced creation of large wildlife parks.

Don Fry10/07/2019 16:49:16
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Fusion has been 5 to 10 years away for the last 50 years

Stuart C10/07/2019 17:33:36
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What are the proposals for upgrading the power distribution network? Have we years of intensive road-works ahead of us? Does range matter when stuck in continuous traffic jams?

IDD1510/07/2019 18:32:33
123 forum posts

The BBC have done a pretty good Q&A on electric cars which those who have not been paying attention in the previous 74 pages of this thread may find useful.

BBC Q&A

As an EV driver it seems fair and accurate piece really. Strangely nobody mentioned caravans...

Idd

Nigel R10/07/2019 20:43:13
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Sorry Don missed the irony!

The 10 years away had at least been increased now to 20+.

I'm generally quite pro fission. Just not the way soviet era Russia did it, ie on the cheap and mainly to make weapons grade plutonium in horribly unsafe reactors.

China are building a lot of reactors. Becoming quite the leading experts in the field. Latest Russian designs now moving to get certified to western standard too. And Heres us paying the french to make one, originally intended to be with Chinese help. Funny old world.

Don Fry10/07/2019 20:57:57
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Absolutely right. I happen to still own a house downwind of Hinckley C. Bet I can't rent it to a senior manager.

Nigel R10/07/2019 21:02:11
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2981 forum posts
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Few years yet until that's a problem devil

Don Fry10/07/2019 21:29:45
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I reckon, it will not produce a watt of power. I reckon, if you cut it up, before the fuel rods get hot, it's a simple demolition job. And a very expensive political problem.

BTW, have a look at the cooling valve open/ shut problem on the Three Mile Island. A couple of thousand dollars of cost cutting, a nuclear plant ruined. And the Japanese, failed to put the backup generators out of reach of the tsunami. Nature reserve created, on a crowded island.

And in fairness, the USA, and Japan produce good engineers. Couldn't spot all the ways that technology will shaft you. It's a wicked technology. I thought it the dog's dodahs when I was a kid.

Keith Miles 211/07/2019 00:55:06
169 forum posts
5 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 13:41:34:

Well certainly the days of i.c engind passenger car ownership are numbered. It won't be legal to sell or market them after 2040.......

The final line of your post hints at everyone using public transport? Well that's almost funny. Where I live, in a relatively small rural village, the bus service has all but disappeared. There are just 3 per day. Morning, mid-day and one later, about 5 or 6 o clock. That's it. Public transport is hunky dory when all you need is to get there, but if you want to bring 6 bags of cement or half a dozen 2.1 metre lengths of 3x2 home from the nearest builder's merchant (before you ask, they only deliver trade orders) then you'd be stuffed on a bus because they'd not let you on.

I do find it strange you feel the charging infrastructure will never be sufficient. The majority - 80% - of present electric car owners charge at home. Why might you think this percentage may not stay the same when electric cars begin selling in much greater numbers than at present? Surely most EV owners will carry on home charging?

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 14:11:00

 

Percy, I really wish that I shared your optimism.

Public transport is, indeed, sadly lacking and for many, even if political aspirations to maximise its coverage were achieved, it would still be inadequate for many of the population. No public transport system will provide an equal or attractive alternative to private vehicle ownership just as electric vehicles will not directly replace all fossil fuelled private vehicles without massive expenditure and a massive change to civil infrastructure which, even then, might not be adequate to serve an equal or increasing number of electric vehicles.

Your 80% home charge figure seems based upon those who are able to home charge and who can afford to buy an electric vehicle. Many current vehicle owners are less fortunate with very low budgets and no off-road parking facility.

The idea of lamp post charging might sound attractive provided that the number of lamp posts in a street of terraced houses or flats is adequate for the number of private vehicle owners living there! Unlikely. Furthermore, any form of charging adjacent to a public pavement (and free of yellow lines!) is likely to raise issues concerning safety, vandalism and maintenance and who would take responsibility for that?

One filling station, however, currently copes easily with, and serves well, an entire surrounding vehicle owning population plus passing visitors without the need for any major and expensive civil engineering redesign or upheaval.

So whilst I accept the imminent demise of current IC vehicles, I maintain that we do not yet have a directly comparable and viable long term alternative and until we do, I can only envisage an enforced overall reduction in personal vehicle ownership due to the numerous “real world” disadvantages of electric power and the expensive and extensive infrastructure needed to adequately support it.

Actually, It is rumoured, apparently, that Tesla are considering moving away from car production to concentrate on battery manufacture and development, including their use for civil power supplies, some of which are already in use.

If true, perhaps Elon Musk is even smarter than we thought?

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 11/07/2019 01:07:23

Tom Sharp 211/07/2019 01:01:42
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3459 forum posts
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When I was a kid the Eagle comic painted a wonderful new world. And it had Dan Dare pilot of the future.

Keith Miles 211/07/2019 09:14:15
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I note, in this thread, no mention of the current practicality (or lack of it) of converting the world’s existing shipping, lorries and public transport (including aircraft) to electric. We rely on those more than we rely on private vehicles and they are probably more important for maintaining our current way of life and preventing a catastrophic breakdown of our current infrastructure.

They say that necessity is the mother of invention but I fear that the current pace of technological advance and a flawed focus (no, not Ford Focus!) on battery power will not provide a suitable solution in a suitable time frame.

Whether we wish to accept it or not, there is currently NO alternative technology to match the convenience, flexibility, availability, practicality or cost of fossil fuelled transport.

There is also no technology that is entirely environmentally or socially friendly either.

Unless that changes within the next 20 years or so, I fear that we may be forced to reduce our consumption of energy ever further and to prioritise its use for essential services.

jrman11/07/2019 09:29:50
346 forum posts
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Don,

I think you will find the design of Fukushima Daichi was carried out by General Electric (USA) who stipulated that the back up generators must be positioned in the basement area in order to reduce pump operating costs An unusual design stipulation I would have thought!

Nigel R11/07/2019 10:28:40
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2981 forum posts
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Not sure they did. True it was GE design, and one of the creaky first generation boiling water jobs at that. Unit 6 didn't flood and it was used to keep units 5 and 6 cool.

Tepco had known of the badly located backup generators for years, ditto the sea wall providing poor protection, and did nothing. They also refused help from the US who had portable kit ready to fly in and use immediately, if I remember right. Japanese government took a poor stance, closed from outside help or advice, dithered, and made the situation far worse. Tepco didn't have emergency cabling to connect their own batteries to the cooling pumps, connection points were in the basement and liable to flood. And they knew all this. Management ought to be court marshalled, etc.

Despite all this, from all the stuff released during that incident, the local residents had a dose less than a CT scan would give you. And the lasting irony of that incident, is that Japan is now switching to coal, and that switch will kill more people through disease and pollution than continuing the nuclear plant operation would. Money would better have been put into sorting out any other "known issues they didn't bother doing anything about" with their existing plant.

Three mile island did a lot to raise standards within the industry, both design and operation. Lots of the techniques and process, the checks and balances, are common to aviation and medical arenas.

Not everyone signs up to those standards. Russia / China are approaching them these days, I understand.

I realise we're digressing from cars a bit, but you have to charge them up from something...

Edited By Nigel R on 11/07/2019 10:29:13

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