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Electric Cars.

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Alan Jarvis11/07/2019 11:06:32
167 forum posts
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Keith it is already happening

Airbus electric aircraft

www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2018/07/the-future-is-electric.html

Hybrid cruise ship

www.overnmenteuropa.eu/hybrid-cruise-ship-roald-amundsen/93860/

Percy Verance11/07/2019 13:54:14
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You are a little behind what's actually happeng Keith. Tesla are now taking orders for their electric semi-truck, which is the equivalent of an HGV. From memory it was listed at about 150k, so competitively priced compared to an HGV unit such as a Volvo or Scania.

There are a number of electric van options already out there Keith. LDV, VW, Mercedes, Nissan and others have them available now. Electric buses are already in widespread use in China and Norway. Norway even has sections of "charging" road, so the buses can take an induction charge as they move along the road...... 

And electric boats/ships are here already Keith. In particular parts of Europe electric ferries are the order of the day.

I'd agree Keith that fossil fuelled transport is hard to beat and has certainly paved the way as far as it goes. But I'm afraid the reality is that one day in the not too distant future there will be no more fossil fuel to be had. I'm not saying it'll be like a light being switched off, but at some point we'll reach a time when it's uneconomic to drill for oil, refine it and transport it to an ever decreasing number of users and distribution points. Most of the major oil companies have already seen the light and have purchased existing EV charge networks. Their aim of course is to build on that and place charging points in all their forecourts, which is what is happening now. It's interesting that Shell have rebranded themselves an Energy Company, not simply an oil giant. They have also moved into the domestic energy market. Remember what I said earlier regarding EV drivers charging at home? Looks like they've got that covered as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/07/2019 14:14:35

Nigel R11/07/2019 14:46:01
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"They have also moved into the domestic energy market"

They took over First Utility. Which means, ultimately, they bought a billing and administration front end business, rather than actually doing any of the electricity generation or distribution or infrastructure.

Percy Verance11/07/2019 14:53:13
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8108 forum posts
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But isn't that moving into the energy market? You buy gas/electricity from them, they charge you for it. Yep, I'm sure that's it Nigel......

They (Shell) even accosted me outside my local ASDA branch and tried to sign me up. I politely declined. I'll soon be generating some of my own electricity for free. I don't need their bills.

The DNO's - District Network Operators ( I used to work for one) don't bill domestic customers for supply of electricity, they leave that to the sharks energy companies.....they deal primarily with installation and repair of infrastructure.

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/07/2019 14:56:46

Nigel R11/07/2019 15:04:07
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You made a good choice; I have one of their bills.

It's based on incorrect information, ignoring our correct readings supplied to First Utility at the time we closed our account and moved to another supplier, and is way beyond the back billing cutoff (added to which it fails several of the other clauses in the regulations). It's been followed almost immediately with unpleasant threats of debt collection, despite me already having the issue escalated from first contact with customer resolutions to the team that deals with bad billing. I'm singularly unimpressed with their outfit and will be going to the regulator shortly if they don't sort it out toot suite.

By contrast the network operator responsible for our supply has been very prompt to fix any issues (countryside, overhead wires, trees - the usual).

Is it moving into the market? In some respects, maybe. But their original oil and gas business involves exploration, extraction, refinement, distribution and sales to public. To have a comparable electric business they need power stations, wind farms, hydro dams, etc.

I'm sure they will want to move that way eventually.

Edited By Nigel R on 11/07/2019 15:06:01

Percy Verance11/07/2019 15:20:17
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8108 forum posts
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The worst I ever came across - and no way would I recommend them - is N Power. Totally Inept Cretins.

Before I moved to where I am now, I lived in the nearest town, which is 5 miles away. At the time it seemed the *thing* to regularly swap energy providers, so I did. Switching to N Power was easy enough, but what came next was hard to take. I began receiving both bills for my own home, plus the house over the road! I rang N Power Customer Services as you would, and explained what had happened, and that I was getting both my own bills and also those for the property over the road. I totally lost it when the girl at the other end asked how long I'd owned the other property........

A manager bod came on the line telling me I'd upset the girl. I apologised. He told me my rant made Adolf Hitler seem like a purile schoolboy......

Avoid N Power at ALL costs. If you have no opton but to go with N Power, ring the Samaritans.........

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/07/2019 15:24:00

Keith Miles 211/07/2019 15:37:10
172 forum posts
6 photos

Alan, Percy,

I am a PPL and am fully aware of various experiments within the aircraft industry and that is what they currently are, experiments.

To quote just one example of a two-seat training aircraft already available, it has a total endurance of 1.5 hours which includes a 30 minute reserve. Pretty useless, therefore, for anything other than circuit training or flights close to its home base. Endurance, plus a safe reserve, is a more essential requirement within aviation, for obvious reasons!

Like other contributors to this thread, I come back to the issue of energy production rather than end use. There appears to be a major contradiction here.

We are constantly being told that our energy consumption needs to be significantly reduced generally and not just for environmental reasons. I fail to see how that can ever be achieved by, in this case, merely swapping one limited resource by placing increasing pressure on another limited resource and solving, or attempting to solve, one problem by creating another.

As has been said, albeit ironically and in defence of electric vehicles, perhaps the ultimate solution is for us to reduce our expectations.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the human race has, quite understandably, become accustomed to advances that have, thus far, made our lives more comfortable not less so and self interest and relatively short term thinking merely adds to the problem of trying to alter our existing mindset.

Nigel R11/07/2019 15:42:49
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3104 forum posts
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"I began receiving both bills for my own home, plus the house over the road!"

Experienced similar problems.

Turns our house and another nearby house had been assigned the same ID. So any work on a meter on either house would result in something being messed up in the other's electric account. Equally, either house changing provider, resulted in both being moved to new provider.

That was fun to sort out, and you'll be surprised at this, the electric provider took quite a number of goes to figure out what was going on, let alone get things right, and it was all done with us calling them, rather than the other way around.

Nigel R11/07/2019 15:49:09
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3104 forum posts
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Keith, the switch to electric with private cars is not entirely about reducing demand on the supply, in part it serves to remove a lot of pollution from inner cities. The long term dream is of course that the electricity will come from renewable sources and thus not depend on digging up squashed dinosaurs from under unstable nation's soil.

Somewhere along the line, I agree, we will probably need to accept that cars will need to be more economical, likely smaller and slower.

The cynic in me says we'll end up depending on solar panels that can only be constructed using some rare earth mineral found only in a different set of unstable nations...

Alan Jarvis11/07/2019 16:21:42
167 forum posts
28 photos

I am a PPL and am fully aware of various experiments within the aircraft industry and that is what they currently are, experiments.

Yes the Wright Bros plane was an experiment and look where that has taken us.

Don Fry11/07/2019 16:53:37
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4054 forum posts
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Nigel, they are squashed amphibians. Dinosaurs are reptiles, and came a bit later.

And Alan, to misuse the small print on financial instruments, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

Percy Verance11/07/2019 17:05:47
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8108 forum posts
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Exactly Alan. The reality is that the car industry is just 10 years in with EV's. I'm certain the next 10 or 20 years will bring huge advances........

The reverse will, I'm sure, be the case with i.c. engine development. That's probably at 90 to 95% now. There is still work to do with emissions, and I think that's where the R & D will be in i.c. from hereon. Of course there is the hybrid option, which prevents emissions some of the time, but it's simply a sticking plaster solution for now. Once battery technology advances to the point where a 500 to 600+ mile range is the norm, hybrid production will probably decline as they'll become increasingly pointless.

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/07/2019 17:19:58

Tony Richardson11/07/2019 19:27:57
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605 forum posts
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As a footnote to a previous post about electric aircraft, one carrier that operates float planes here on the west coast is already converting at least one aircraft - Beaver I believe - to electric, whether this will be the beginning of whole fleet conversion I do not know and it's routes are relatively short so interim charging should not be a problem, progress is being watched with great interest here, the outcome - if it succeeds - will certainly be historic.

Don Fry11/07/2019 20:01:49
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4054 forum posts
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That's about right Tony. The first successful electric aircraft will be a motor glider. The second will be a low powered Cub, Beaver, Cessna sort of thing. For the same reasons our toys followed that route.

Invent the battery, a use will follow. Caution, the operative word is invent.

i was reading the other day, a proposed battery. Either the cathode, or anode, used nano wires ( note plural) , seeded with viruses ( yes, virus) to produce a greater surface area. Before you laugh, this was serious. That's how difficult getting a good (better) battery is.

Don Fry11/07/2019 20:05:42
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4054 forum posts
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First Crude Electric Vehicle Is Developed

Around 1832, Robert Anderson develops the first crude electric vehicle, but it isn't until the 1870s or later that electric cars become practical. Pictured here is an electric vehicle built by an English inventor in 1884.

https://www.energy.gov › timeline

Solly11/07/2019 20:07:29
241 forum posts
1 photos

Percy, which electric car are you driving at the moment.

Percy Verance11/07/2019 20:22:55
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8108 forum posts
155 photos

I'm not Solly. I did come within a whisker of ordering a Nissan Leaf about a year or so back but decided to hold off. I'm pleased I did because the market has changed quite a bit in that time. The difficulty a potential buyer now faces is the year (or more) delay once the car is ordered. And of course while you're waiting for that year to pass, the market moves on further still.... It's knowing when to jump I guess.

The secondhand market seems a little better, although the sought after cars are retaining their residual value well at the moment. I see this dropping back a bit once the supply situation eases. If it ever does......

EVM on YouTube hasn't helped here. He wouldn't recommend any new electric car currently available. That's confusing because none are, you have to order then wait......  That said EVM has ordered a Kia eNiro, but it will be 2020 before he sees it......  I missed out on a 4k mile eGolf at my local VW dealer. It was going to take me a month to get my hands on the folding, but while I was waiting, someone else bought the Golf. The EGolf does have a relatively short range (about 140 miles) but that matters little to me. Some weeks I won't do anywhere near that, and I can't drive longer distances anymore because I have arthritis in my knees. About 30 to 40 miles and I'm in agony.

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/07/2019 20:35:55

Rich too12/07/2019 08:20:13
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3053 forum posts
1070 photos
Posted by Nigel R on 08/07/2019 09:16:47:

"It's the range thing that always bothers me about electric cars."

A solvable problem. As we've said many times before on this thread I think, the answer there is a hybrid.

If you have charging facilities, 95% of your driving, the daily commute, run to the shops, etc, can be within range of the electric bit. For the other 5%, a petrol generator is on board.

Alternatively, if you have nowhere to (regularly) charge, everything is by petrol.

Or, get an electric bike/scooter for one man commuter journeys and keep the dinosaur for the occasional long distance. Many ways to skin the cat.

I agree totally, and current EV sales are those that it is practical for. Hybrid is much more practical.

Have you seen the cost of electric motorcycles?

Rich too12/07/2019 08:23:46
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3053 forum posts
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Posted by Don Fry on 08/07/2019 12:43:11:

Long term planned future. Where does that phrase come from. What cars we drive is driven by taxation, and the ability of government to enforce taxation, restrictions on the use of cars, and again the ability of authority to enforce it.

I see precious little planning, just polititions, giving mouthroom to sound bites.

Pure electric is a coming technology, but there can be no planning around what has not been invented. And I don't believe this thread is restrictive to pure electric vehicles.

Andy, does your car come into the plug in electric class?

Exactly, who says ? I read an article recently, and it stated that manufacturers cannot agree on the best way forward.

Rich too12/07/2019 08:40:06
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3053 forum posts
1070 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 13:41:34:

Well certainly the days of i.c engind passenger car ownership are numbered. It won't be legal to sell or market them after 2040.......

The final line of your post hints at everyone using public transport? Well that's almost funny. Where I live, in a relatively small rural village, the bus service has all but disappeared. There are just 3 per day. Morning, mid-day and one later, about 5 or 6 o clock. That's it. Public transport is hunky dory when all you need is to get there, but if you want to bring 6 bags of cement or half a dozen 2.1 metre lengths of 3x2 home from the nearest builder's merchant (before you ask, they only deliver trade orders) then you'd be stuffed on a bus because they'd not let you on.

I do find it strange you feel the charging infrastructure will never be sufficient. The majority - 80% - of present electric car owners charge at home. Why might you think this percentage may not stay the same when electric cars begin selling in much greater numbers than at present? Surely most EV owners will carry on home charging?

Edited By Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 14:11:00

Your first sentence is not quite true.

How on earth will 80% of ALL current car users be able to charge at home?

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