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Electric Cars.

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Nigel R12/07/2019 08:51:56
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80% of existing, current, right now, electric car owners.

Not 80% of all private car owners.

There's an obvious self selection in the first group, for whom charge-on-the-drive is practical.

Yes, electric motorbikes are not cheap. But, electric mopeds, a.k.a. ebikes, can be.

Glyn4412/07/2019 10:57:23
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Going to Brum on a Sunday in August for a day at the cricket. Need to be in the ground at the round by, say, 10:30am. It’s an about a 50 min. Train journey, first train to leave home is 10:23!!!

Also if we go to an evening gig in Birmingham last train home is 10:20. Music stops around 11pm. Public transport, it’s a joke.

Got to get the Jag out again.

ken anderson.12/07/2019 10:58:51
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just hope also that the infrastructure is up to it(underground cables)most which have been down below before most of us were borrn. I worked for 30 years keeping open the arteries of the nation(gas board) and a lot of the pipes in the ground were approaching 100 years old +.we once uncovered a one that was installed in 1912,same year as the titanic carry on. When I finished(2008) they were on mission nationwide to replace old metal pipes......est to take 30 years......just when we are supposedly going to stop fossil fuels(that makes sense)…...so like I say hope the cables are up to the task looming?

ken anderson...ne...1....cable and gas dept.

Keith Miles 212/07/2019 12:17:08
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When we use historical references (e.g. invention of the motor car and the aeroplane) to support an argument regarding human innovation we need to consider the relevance of such references in relation to the conditions and needs of the time and the conditions and needs of today.

There is a world of difference between, on the one hand, introducing something which did not previously exist and having the luxury of time to develop it over an extended time period and, on the other, having to find a new technology in a much shorter time period to directly replace what already exists and on which we now depend.

How quickly a new vehicle technology can be developed and established to match the existing one and how quickly the sale of such alternatively powered vehicles can be increased and costs/prices reduced remains to be seen.

I also wonder about any eventual second hand market for electric vehicles (i.e. cheap ones!) and whether there will be an equivalent level of support as for IC vehicles or whether they will be rendered obsolete (i.e. scrap!) much sooner, something that we are already seeing with other electronic devices!

Don Fry12/07/2019 12:45:34
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My long term view. The current vision of electric cars is fatally flawed.

Current thoughts are, take a car weighing 2000 kilos, capable of cruising at a hundred miles an hour, with a range of 500 miles, and change the power unit. And put a few wires in for the chargers. Job ✅

When you have worked out the batteries, ditto lorries, ships, 250 mph trains, no more mobile oil burners. Job ✅

With the usual caveats, that lot is probably possible.

No investment for public transport. No thoughts that we might have to, to survive, use less energy.

All I see is a re-run in the dash to diesel incident.

I am a glass half full sort, despite a working life that dents such optimism. But I find this quite depressing,

Nigel R12/07/2019 13:01:51
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I think that's a fundamentally different problem there Don. You're talking about readjusting the aspirations that have been sold to all and sundry, and how a large shiny bauble can show off how much of those aspirations have been achieved. I kid ye not, overheard recently, the comment "I used to think you'd made it in life when you had an Audi parked on the drive" - this made over the replacement vehicle, an Evoque. That's the problem that needs fixing, the expectations that in every life will be a garden full of rainbows and unicorns, and rewards fit for a king. Rather than admiring the nice lawn that's already there.

Back to the practical, it would help if all the 2000kg baubles were actually 500kg, stop-start town driving would use far less energy.

But. A far worse problem, because of low turnover, is the massively inefficient housing stock we live in. In ancient Greece, they built South facing, everywhere - take advantage of the sun in winter, shade them in summer. Here, there, and everywhere, just plonk them in and patch up the heat problem with a fossil fuel boiler. Anything remotely designed to use the sun is "an eco house", a special case, an exception to be examined, and, something you can charge extra cash for. Not simply "a good house, built right".

And if you think our houses are bad, try the US...

Percy Verance13/07/2019 07:22:43
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Hi again Keith

I think you'll find there will be support enough for electric vehicles once they begin to get older. There are already a number of garages/workshops registered with a National Organisation of EV Repairers. The two guys whom run the small rural (but very busy) garage near my village have even been on several courses to qualify them to service and repair EV's. There are already a number of companies whom can undertake refurbishment of electric car battery packs for much less than the cost of a complete new pack.

In any case Keith, even when the efficiency of an electric car's battery pack declines beyond motoring useage, the packs can still be used as electricity storage banks for many more years.

Edited By Percy Verance on 13/07/2019 07:26:26

Percy Verance13/07/2019 07:22:45
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Hi again Keith

I think you'll find there will be support enough for electric vehicles once they begin to get older. There are already a number of garages/workshops registered with a National Organisation of EV Repairers. The two guys whom run the small rural (but very busy) garage near my village have even been on several courses to qualify them to service and repair EV's. There are already a number of companies whom can undertake refurbishment of electric car battery packs for much less than the cost of a complete new pack.

IDD1513/07/2019 09:53:13
123 forum posts

For goodness sake cheer up guys!

I have been driving the Leaf now for 31 months and am very, very happy with it. To suggest that a current BEV is completely inferior in every respect to an ICE vehicle is quite frankly just complete bulls dangly bits.

The Renault Zoe is seven years old and its gen 3 version is due in the next couple of months. Seven years ago at launch the Zoe had a 22KWhr battery. New Zoe 50 will have a 50KWHr battery. In seven years the battery has more than doubled BUT the chassis is the same size.

Formula E required two cars in a team in order to complete the race when it first started. The driver had to swap cars (battery swapping was considered too dangerous) and complete the race in the second car. In just FOUR years they now just need ONE car and ONE battery to complete the same race.

The Leaf is now available with TWICE the capacity battery that mine has. OK so I admit it is slightly better looking but it is near as dammit the same size as my vehicle.

The number of public charging points has more than doubled since I started driving my Leaf and more and more are planned and coming on stream all the time. Public charging is far from perfect, and still patchy in quite a few areas but it is getting better.

High performance battery vehicles are slaughtering previous records set by ICE vehicles, Pikes Peak, Goodwood Festival of speed to name but two. You won't see an electric car at Le Mans for a while yet but the Hybrids Audi have developed are absolutely phenomenal beasts.

I have said it before many times on this thread, the numbers are going in the right direction. Yes it is a small segment of the market but its a rapidly growing segment, with more innovation and creative energy than the rest "oooh look what we've done with the cup holders this year" market.

As consumers we now have a bigger choice of transport options to meet our needs from scooters and skateboards, Ebikes (Don) through to cars, vans and soon lorries even.

Come 2040 you will still be able to buy an ICE vehicle, it will just have a motor and battery in it to help it along. BUT you will be breathing cleaner air and maybe we won't be burning up the planet so fast.

The future is already here. Model 3

This is my last contribution to this thread. The constant negativity that goes on here is just completely pointless. Any body who would like some help or advice re EV's please just PM me and i'll do my best to help.

Idd (....gone flying dept.)

Doc Marten13/07/2019 11:19:12
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It's a debate about new technology IDD, so it's bound to encourage negative responses especially as it doesn't yet suit the overwhelming majority of car users, just as diesel didn't in the beginning,. Comparing like for like isn't what the discussion is questioning, it's the factors in running them that causes the reluctance and until it matches the current, conventional powdered vehicles will continue to do so, Percy isn't flouncing out with indignation rather he is standing his ground and presenting the case of progress being made, we all know for a fact that EV is the future, just not yet.

Keith Miles 215/07/2019 13:26:10
170 forum posts
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Posted by Doc Marten on 13/07/2019 11:19:12:

It's a debate about new technology IDD, so it's bound to encourage negative responses especially as it doesn't yet suit the overwhelming majority of car users, just as diesel didn't in the beginning,. Comparing like for like isn't what the discussion is questioning, it's the factors in running them that causes the reluctance and until it matches the current, conventional powdered vehicles will continue to do so, Percy isn't flouncing out with indignation rather he is standing his ground and presenting the case of progress being made, we all know for a fact that EV is the future, just not yet.

Exactly!

Aside from the environmental issue, the majority of current vehicle owners will not buy EVs until (a) they can afford to and (b) view them, in their specific personal circumstances, as equally convenient and practical to operate as their current IC vehicle, the key word being “equally”.

It is, therefore, not a matter of “negativity” but one of current reality rather than one of future aspirations, hopes or possibilities.

Also, I currently find it more advantageous and practical to take, to the flying field, 3 IC powered models and one 2.5 litre bottle of fuel for a day’s uninterrupted flying than 3 similar electrically powered models and a dozen (or more) pre-charged batteries and/or charging paraphernalia or a petrol driven portable generator!

When I can fly my Wot4, for example, for up to 25 minutes on a battery, I might be persuaded to adjust my opinion!

😊

Percy Verance15/07/2019 13:46:55
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And there we have it again. It's an expectation *thing*. Keith, buy a Multiplex Heron. I frequently fly for over an hour on a 2200mah pack with mine..... It's your model that is keeping your flights short, not the technology. 

And at some point Keith, they will have to buy EV's, because there will be little else from which to choose. Although the 100% i.c. cut-off point is 2040 - which I personally feel will yet be brought forward - many car makers will have moved towards hybrid and pure electric drivetrains some time before then. Even the mighty BMW themselves anticipate electric cars to be taking 18 to 25% of the market by 2025, and they (BMW) are also considering moving the MINI over to being a 100% electric brand by 2030. There ought to be plenty to go round Keith..... wink  I'd have my reservations regarding driving a BMW though. 

And they must be a fairly tolerant bunch where you fly Keith. I club I used to fly with had a suggested maximum flight time of 10 minutes. Mind you, there were over a hundred members. 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 15/07/2019 14:18:16

Don Fry15/07/2019 14:09:37
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Percy, your point is not entirely valid. At some point, manufacturers may move to EV. They will do so when their market wants the product. If they move before the market wants the product they will go bankrupt. Basic business practice.

Re 2040, political promises for 20odd years away are 10 a penny, always have been, always will be, for the simple reason they don't cost a penny.

Don Fry15/07/2019 14:11:42
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And a Muliplex Heron, fine model by the way, is chalk and cheese to a Wot 4 for watt requirements.

Nigel R15/07/2019 14:39:09
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"When I can fly my Wot4, for example, for up to 25 minutes on a battery"

you really fly a wot4 for 25 minutes?

how big a tank does that need?

Percy Verance15/07/2019 16:39:15
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And his 2.5 litres of fuel would soon get used up too..........

How much does glow fuel cost these days? I haven't bought any for years now.

At least street charging solutions seem to be appearing now. As will be seen from the filled trench, the power take-off is from the street light.... Took about 1 1/2 hours to install so I'm told

ubi3.jpg

ubi1.jpg

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 15/07/2019 16:45:02

Nigel R15/07/2019 16:44:04
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I'd also point out that

"3 similar electrically powered models and a dozen (or more) pre-charged batteries "

is actually quite convenient.

And if you want a mix of sizes, then 5 lipos for each one, or something like that, that's very convenient too.

 

 

"How much does glow fuel cost these days? "

weston 5% prosynth, 4 gallons to your door, £60

 

Edited By Nigel R on 15/07/2019 16:46:34

Percy Verance15/07/2019 16:57:40
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Having started suffering with arthritis in my knees a few years back, I find electric flight extremely convenient. No pumping fuel into a tank, no starting engines or fiddling with mixture needles, no wiping exhaust residue off models. Suits me. What someone finds convenient (or not) can sometimes be the result of far more than a simple subjective judgement.

I certainly wouldn't want to stand and fly continuously for 25 minutes anyway, because I'd probably find it less than comfortable. I sometimes fly sitting down when I'm flying the Heron.

If I decide to go out flying at, say 10am, I might take 20 or 30 charged packs with me, including a bite to eat plus something to drink such as fruit juice. I could be there until perhaps 3pm, or later if the fancy takes me. I'll charge the batteries up over the course of the next day or so - I have four dual output chargers - and in doing so I can't say I've ever felt inconvenienced. I do other things while the packs are charging, although I'm rarely more than 15 or 20 yards away. No, I don't think anything would entice me back to i.c. flying now.  All I need now is an electric car - which I'd charge using the Octopus Energy Go tarriff on 5p per kwh - and I'll be happy enough. You are limited to a 4 hour slot during the night hours. But even so, being able to add 120 miles of range at a total cost of 20p + vat has it's merits. The downside is that the daytime tarriff is higher than normal, but if you're able to offset this with solar by selling power back to the grid, you'd still be on a winner over the long term. And 120 miles is around what I'd drive in a busy week. It might normally be 10 miles or so per day......

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 15/07/2019 17:16:14

Percy Verance15/07/2019 18:24:58
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Now that I've eaten and thought it over, the actual charge cost would be £1.40 plus vat. Quite a hike. I'd need to mull that over........

Jeez that's over a penny a mile. 

Edited By Percy Verance on 15/07/2019 18:25:49

Don Fry15/07/2019 19:11:09
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Percy, a litre of Prosynth, not my numbers, I don't use it, is about £3 odd quid a litre. That the raw numbers, no farting about with charge efficiencies, VAT, etc. That is a small number in the cost of this hobby.. Now I accept your reasoning your knees are knackered, you make a choice, I honour the choice, and I am one who dreads the consequences I have inflicted on my body.

But please accept, shifting to lecci is still a career choice in our hobby. To say, we have to accept a battery, because a politico, here to-day, gone tomorrow, says so, is bizarre.

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