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Don Fry15/07/2019 19:15:49
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Posted by Nigel R on 15/07/2019 14:39:09:

"When I can fly my Wot4, for example, for up to 25 minutes on a battery"

you really fly a wot4 for 25 minutes?

how big a tank does that need?

My brain goes to mush at 8 minutes.

Former Member15/07/2019 20:49:39
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Keith Miles 216/07/2019 09:45:28
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Firstly, on the Wot4 issue!

270 cc /9 oz. tank, Irvine 46. The tank comes with the kit, so nowt special and about standard for that engine size.

I normally fly for 15 minutes (still twice what my mate gets from his brand new, and similar, electric Riot) and I always have just under half a tank left (compared to his 25% of battery).

Once had a mechanical failure at the carb. Could not operate the throttle. Had to fly it to deadstick. That’s how I know that it will fly for at least 25 minutes!

Again, if we’re going to make comparisons, be it with respect to models or EVs, they need to be realistic and equitable comparisons.

Comparing, for example, the endurance of an IC powered Wot4 with a Lipo powered “glider” is just silly.

Back to the original, albeit related, subject.....

The hard fact is, irrespective of personal requirements or preferences, that batteries are less “energy dense” than traditional liquid fuel.

If that was not the case, EVs would probably already be more widely established (and cheaper!).

Yes, oil is running out. Yes, the days of IC are numbered. Yes,technology is advancing.

None of the above, however, are arguments which address relative real world current performance or relative convenience of EVs nor will they be enough to convince most people to convert until forced to do so.

Nigel R16/07/2019 10:26:07
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If it helps to know, I fly 12 minutes on an wot 4 sized electric aerobat, take off weight 4.75lb. That's 12 minutes of aerobatics not just stooging. Comes down still 25% full. Spec the power train correctly, it can be done.

ceejay16/07/2019 10:28:55
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there is so much of the world that needs to change before we use up all the fossil fuels and electric cars are only a small part,

my main issue is the claim that the EV is so environmentally good, it is only good at the end user ie us, we don't have to suffer the environment being destroyed or the pollution that come along with the mining/processing the materials needed to make them (not just EV,s I know but that's what we are talking about here) if you have a spare min google lithium mines for just one example and be thankfull they don't have lithium deposits in the Cotswolds, twas the same for coal and oil I know and having grown up in an industrial area powered by coal i don't miss the clouds of coal smoke that fell as black rain on me mums washing!!!

I know we have to change and I know technology marches on exponentially but we are a long way away yet and the battery has many years of development yet to enable us to live the convenient life we have now from fossils fuel use we will get there im sure, we have to or walk, but it wont be in my lifetime but hopefully for my children's and grand children's future, some years ago I remember the furore over the erection of wind generators and the blight on the landscape they would bring (I will take a wind millor two over a nuclear PowerStation any day), but now some 20 years later they are part of our landscape and I believe we are the world experts in this form of power generation and 2018 saw the balance tip in favour of renewables for our electricity, Scotland went 100% renewable, I have no doubt we will get there I just don't like politicians telling me I have to!!

cj

FlyinFlynn16/07/2019 10:34:01
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ubi1.jpg

Gonna need more than one charge point off every lamppost in that street. How long do you think it will be before someone sticks a suitable plug on a 4 way distribution block?

Nigel R16/07/2019 13:30:08
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Easy way to universally maximise the range of electric cars - blanket 50mph limit on main roads of all kinds motorways included.

Want to increase their range around town? 20mph limit, make them under 500kg.

Expectations are the problem. We all still want a 2000kg SUV that tanks along at 100mph, in electric. With 300 mile range and a cherry on top please.

Don Fry16/07/2019 14:56:19
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One of your wishes comes to production next year or the next, of a 450 kg 2 seater city car from one of the French mainstream makers. Top speed, 30 mph.

I sometimes think, the whole question of speed will go when the AI gets good enough to drive the the box, and speed gets less important as the occupants can do what they want. All these slow boxes, bristling with sensors, so you can't bully them and get away with it, just end up defining the road speed. Steady boring progress.

Nigel R16/07/2019 15:08:59
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Yes, I think you're right. If you can legitimately waste time on facebook while the car drives you to work, you don't worry about the extra five minutes.

Alternatively, sleep on the motorway while you travel from north to south of the country.

etc.

Wishes? They're already made, Renault Twizy has been around for a while but I don't see many being driven. 17bhp, 1/3 the size of a normal parking spot, 2 person, currently about 40 mile range.

Seem to recall some bloke called Clive made an effiicent electric trike once, nice idea, didn't catch on.

Nigel R16/07/2019 15:20:40
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Actually, thinking about it, I'd quite like the electric Morgan 3 wheeler. That's 500kg. Might not quite fit into "saving the planet" category.

Keith Miles 216/07/2019 17:02:16
303 forum posts
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Posted by Nigel R on 16/07/2019 10:26:07:

If it helps to know, I fly 12 minutes on an wot 4 sized electric aerobat, take off weight 4.75lb. That's 12 minutes of aerobatics not just stooging. Comes down still 25% full. Spec the power train correctly, it can be done.

Yes, it helps.

It helps to prove the point that you cannot (currently) get the same endurance as IC with battery power even if 12 minutes is considered acceptable for you. And a 25% residue in a battery is a much greater concern than a 25% residue in a fuel tank as the latter does not suffer from any power reduction or loss until fully exhausted as opposed to partially exhausted!

And I can “re-charge” my Wot4 immediately in the time it takes to change a battery and much more quickly than waiting for a battery, or batteries, to charge.

I would also hazard a guess that 2.5 litres of fuel weighs less, and takes up less space, than a dozen or more “Wot4” lipos to obtain similar endurance.

There are upsides and downsides to both technologies and it comes down to what our personal priorities and preferences are but nobody can argue about the laws of physics and chemistry that currently apply to each.

Former Member16/07/2019 18:32:22

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Former Member16/07/2019 19:25:03
3577 forum posts

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Don Fry16/07/2019 19:46:09
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4557 forum posts
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Nice. Whatever the power source, bet that steering is strange at over shopping speed.

You know old age approaches, when the thought, I would prefer to watch, surfaces.

Keith Miles 216/07/2019 20:31:41
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I love Morgans.

Can’t afford one, though.

Went on a factory tour a few years ago. Wonderful!

Somehow, an electric powered one of those seems particularly incongruous because “retro” is the whole point and a central aspect of their attraction albeit with a modern engine and ancillaries.

Maybe they could (or might be forced to) design an electric “fake” engine with accompanying electronically generated sound?

😊

Don Fry16/07/2019 20:52:09
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Err, modern engine, 2 litres, 90 horse.

Former Member16/07/2019 20:56:03

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Former Member16/07/2019 21:27:28

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Nigel R16/07/2019 21:34:58
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"Somehow, an electric powered one of those seems particularly incongruous because “retro” is the whole point"

Guess you weren't a fan of the aero eight? I like the look of the leccy three wheeler. Blend of old and new. Morgan are good at it.

"It helps to prove the point that you cannot (currently) get the same endurance as IC with battery power even if 12 minutes is considered acceptable for you."

ok, well, I won't argue, although I would point out that you're essentially doing range anxiety on model planes - once we hit the point where we could do "the common flight duration" (8 minutes) with "at least IC power" then it no longer really mattered to 99.9% of flyers.

Keith Miles 216/07/2019 22:52:38
303 forum posts
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Nigel,

Actually, I did like the Aero 8, I thought it was a clever “retro” design but with a modern twist.

Range “anxiety”?

After a mere 8 minutes flying, I never get anxious about flying around and, on request, keeping clear for another five or ten minutes, or more, to allow electric flyers to get down promptly before their batteries go flat! Been there, seen it, done it! Many times!

If people are happy with relatively short flight times and with keeping a particularly careful eye or ear on their flight timer due to very slim margins for a go-around or two, that’s fine by me!

Incidentally, I have, and have had, a number of small indoor/park flyer (a.k.a. zero wind) models powered by lipos including helicopters, the largest being a Blade 200SRX and Mini Wot4.

Oh, and I’m a retired electrician!

Hope that clarifies things.

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