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IDD1521/07/2019 13:44:29
123 forum posts

Good grief 2021 for delivery is just stark staring bonkers!

Certainly it is not going to help EV adoption rates nor bring down prices that's for sure. Just a bit concerning for me given the lease is up on the Leaf this December, any advice on car leasing warmly welcomed!

Welcome to the fold Percy.

idd

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 14:35:55
165 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by IDD15 on 21/07/2019 13:44:29:

Welcome to the fold Percy.

idd

A somewhat premature welcome, it seems!

😊

Toni Reynaud21/07/2019 16:04:25
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387 forum posts
45 photos

Just for interest................

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact?fbclid=IwAR0hvO_49eGkcpTeasvDfSZY70N4urjuF2zgWsew25Swug1LmmTQrOFgVyk

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 17:02:09
165 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Toni Reynaud on 21/07/2019 16:04:25:

Just for interest................

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact?fbclid=IwAR0hvO_49eGkcpTeasvDfSZY70N4urjuF2zgWsew25Swug1LmmTQrOFgVyk

Yes, indeed.

It confirms my view that there is no such thing as a free lunch and that any claims of “environmentally friendly” need full scrutiny rather than an acceptance of marketing hype combined with questionable promises of a brighter future.

Nothing is ever as simple as it might seem, nor is our “advancement” free of consequences, despite our preference to convince ourselves otherwise.

I would prefer to convince myself that it’s not too late to halt, reverse or drastically reduce the damage we’ve already done but I’m really struggling on that one.

Shaun Walsh21/07/2019 17:03:46
166 forum posts
12 photos
Posted by Toni Reynaud on 21/07/2019 16:04:25:

Just for interest................

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact?fbclid=IwAR0hvO_49eGkcpTeasvDfSZY70N4urjuF2zgWsew25Swug1LmmTQrOFgVyk

I dare say that the mining of rare earth metals for magnets for powerful electric motors causes similar environmental issues. But that is pollution in someone else's country so to short sighted politicians with no technical knowledge it's not a problem, in the same way as it's not our problem if we reduce CO2 emissions by outsourcing all our manufacturing to the Far East, we still buy the stuff, ship it here, use it and throw it.away.

Politicians only look 4 years ahead and don't have the knowledge to make sensible decisions on anything technical.

The problem is that nobody has the guts to address the basic cause of global pollution, overpopulation.

Don Fry21/07/2019 17:50:21
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3735 forum posts
42 photos

It's not, perhaps, overpopulation is the problem, but them wanting to eat and use resources, as though they are important enough to deserve them. There is a line of learned research, that getting people out of subsistence existence causes a natural lessoning to reproduction rates. Keeping them pinned down in subsistence living, continues the cycle of large families.

Percy Verance21/07/2019 18:09:11
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8109 forum posts
155 photos

Keith

Any environmental benefits or advantages are purely incidental as far as I'm concerned. I'm buying the thing because it'll cost me a fraction of what a conventional i.c. powered car does to run. About 3p per mile or thereabouts. The tree huggers can do as they will. They can gladly come and hug the trees in my garden if it gives them a true sense of wellbeing and fulfilment......... I care not a jot. In fact if there was a scale illustrating how many monkeys I give, I'd probably struggle to register.

And Rich. Believe it or not, the cost savings are a factor. Quite soon I'm having a solar array plus all the associated gubbins installed to enable me to sell energy back to the grid. I'll then be able to choose whether I keep the excess energy and direct it straight to the car or sell it. Over say, 8 to 10 years, the savings will be worth having. With fossil fuels you're stuck with the price they post on the pump, plus ther's no way to acquire free petrol or diesel unless you're a pikey. Plus fossil fuel prices will always increase eventually. The energy I get from solar will always be free.

Doc

That will certainly be an issue they'll need to face at some point. Maybe they'll need to move into new markets and sell something else they have plenty of. Sand or Camels perhaps? One hump or two? wink  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 18:40:22

Kim Taylor21/07/2019 19:14:46
267 forum posts
53 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 18:09:11:

The energy I get from solar will always be free.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 18:40:22

Are you sure??

The loss of income from fossil fuel taxes will have to be recouped from somewhere...........................................

Kim

eflightray21/07/2019 20:05:51
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570 forum posts
128 photos

My criteria were,

does it look good to me ? (I don't care what other think, plus I need to sit low to the pedals)

can I live with the interior, dashboard, controls, infotainment ?

do I enjoy driving it ? (I love it, in sports mode it's real fun)

most importantly, can my models, including the big ones, fit in the rear with the rear seats down ?

is the price acceptable ? (actually it had a £1000 off if you had a test drive, total just under £22 Gs)

will I help saving the planet ? (don't really give a darn, if the whole of the UK changed it would still be infinitesimal affect on the world).

My answers were yes. So I bought a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid. I get 56 mpg with a fair amount of lead foot driving, I don't have to even think about range.

 

.

Edited By eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:15:01

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 20:10:19
165 forum posts
3 photos

By pure coincidence, prior to seeing Percy’s most recent post, I came across an article about relative costs of EV ownership over three years.

Seems that not only are EVs significantly more expensive to buy than an IC equivalent but that they also have the highest depreciation rates, compared to IC alternatives and across all categories. Insurance, it seems, is also more expensive for EVs although insurers are expecting premiums to reduce over time. The article also points out the possible additional cost of battery replacement or leasing to factor in if not already included.

Prior to this, and ready to be persuaded, I also found reviews of the eNiro which were pretty impressive, I must admit. However, the reviews did not include any of the aforementioned factors merely concentrating on the merits of the vehicle itself.

So, the environmental advantages would appear questionable and EV ownership, currently, would also appear to work out, taking everything into account, probably more expensive overall rather than less so, as things stand.

I have never been an “early adopter” of anything preferring to take a “wait and see” approach and you will certainly never see me sleeping in a shop doorway waiting for the latest gadget to arrive.

I have never been a gambler either!

Percy Verance21/07/2019 20:55:00
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8109 forum posts
155 photos

It's probably best you don't buy one then Keith. If you're hinting at my justifying my choice, then it isn't going to happen. It was my decision to make, and I've made it. 

People often spend large sums on holidays, clothes, nights out etc. They're happy with their choice. I'm sure I'll be happy with mine.

Kim

The loss of revenue from fossil fuels will probably be clawed back by introducing tolls on all major routes. 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:07:56

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 21:07:18
165 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:05:51:

My criteria were,

does it look good to me ? (I don't care what other think, plus I need to sit low to the pedals)

can I live with the interior, dashboard, controls, infotainment ?

do I enjoy driving it ? (I love it, in sports mode it's real fun)

most importantly, can my models, including the big ones, fit in the rear with the rear seats down ?

is the price acceptable ? (actually it had a £1000 off if you had a test drive, total just under £22 Gs)

will I help saving the planet ? (don't really give a darn, if the whole of the UK changed it would still be infinitesimal affect on the world).

My answers were yes. So I bought a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid. I get 56 mpg with a fair amount of lead foot driving, I don't have to even think about range.

.

Edited By eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:15:01

We need to be clear about what we are comparing here.

A hybrid is not an EV but, primarily, an IC powered car with a short range, non-essential supplementary battery.

So, of course range isn’t an issue for you because there are plenty of filling stations and you are not totally reliant on a smaller number of battery charging points!

Good choice!

smiley

IDD1521/07/2019 21:10:37
123 forum posts
Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 21/07/2019 20:10:19:

By pure coincidence, prior to seeing Percy’s most recent post, I came across an article about relative costs of EV ownership over three years.

Seems that not only are EVs significantly more expensive to buy than an IC equivalent but that they also have the highest depreciation rates, compared to IC alternatives and across all categories. Insurance, it seems, is also more expensive for EVs although insurers are expecting premiums to reduce over time. The article also points out the possible additional cost of battery replacement or leasing to factor in if not already included.

Prior to this, and ready to be persuaded, I also found reviews of the eNiro which were pretty impressive, I must admit. However, the reviews did not include any of the aforementioned factors merely concentrating on the merits of the vehicle itself.

So, the environmental advantages would appear questionable and EV ownership, currently, would also appear to work out, taking everything into account, probably more expensive overall rather than less so, as things stand.

I have never been an “early adopter” of anything preferring to take a “wait and see” approach and you will certainly never see me sleeping in a shop doorway waiting for the latest gadget to arrive.

I have never been a gambler either!

So lets apply some facts to this shall we?

Nissan Leaf 30 Kw Model replaced my Hyundai i30 Petrol manual.

Insurance cost near as dammit the same.

Servicing £85 annual service

Depreciation, car is valued at £2K more than projected in vehicle lease according to the dealership. If it was diesel the residual value would not only be in the toilet, but flushed away. Again according to the dealership.

Fuel cost: Minimal as I charge at home off the solar panels or for free when I do the shop at Lidl.

Vehicle cost more expensive, yes but I got the smoothest, quietest fully automatic vehicle this side of a Rolls Royce or a Tesla. For the mainly tedious stop start city driving I do it is perfect.

Battery degradation, car is still showing 12 bars life after 15,000 miles. Taxi company has just sold on a 130,000 NV200 minibus (Leaf chassis and power train) and its battery is still showing 12 bars. Battery has an 8yr, 100,000 mile warranty so am not particularly worried. Nissan are now claiming the battery packs will have a life of 20 years.

I am looking forward to seeing your detailed analysis of the environmental mining and refining costs of all the copper wire you've installed over the years as a spark. Then there are also the expensive metals and god knows what in the chemical plant at the back of the engine to clean it up to look at to.

You are absolutely correct to say things should be fully scrutinised. We as a society can and should do better to prevent this:

Pollution link to childs death

EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

Percy Verance21/07/2019 21:11:27
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8109 forum posts
155 photos

I'll also be charging from a small number of charging points Keith. The main one will be sited in my garage, hopefully on Octopus Energy's 5p per kwh EV tarrif, the other may well be one of the chargers at my local Sainsburys because it's free to use.....I must remember to buy a tin of soup or something while I'm there.

Yes IDD, I've been quoted just £40 per year more than was my Focus. I can live with that. yes 

And I certainly don't anticipate worrying about range. The eNiro can manage 250 miles on a full charge. I drive 130 to 150 miles a week at the very most. Perhaps I'll only need to charge every two weeks. I'm not yet certain of the exact cost for an 80% charge, but from what I've read it's unlikely to exceed £7.00 or so. And much less once my solar is up and running and the sun shines.

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:27:47

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 21:31:06
165 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 20:55:00:

It's probably best you don't buy one then Keith. If you're hinting at my justifying my choice, then it isn't going to happen. It was my decision to make, and I've made it.

People often spend large sums on holidays, clothes, nights out etc. They're happy with their choice. I'm sure I'll be happy with mine.

Kim

The loss of revenue from fossil fuels will probably be clawed back by introducing tolls on all major routes.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:07:56

Not questioning your decision, Percy. As you say, your money, your choice.

I won’t be buying one because (a) I can’t afford ANY new car, (b) at the age of 66, I’m likely to be pushing up daisies before EVs become compulsory (c) for my purposes, my current vehicle adequately fulfils my current needs unless it expires when (d) I might shop around for a cheap hybrid assuming that they haven’t been banned, I have some cash and I can still drive!

Percy Verance21/07/2019 21:51:18
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8109 forum posts
155 photos

Well I bought my first brand new car in my early 20's Keith. I was working for a fairly large company at the time, flogging my tripe out working 50 or 60 hours a week. I opened a second bank account specifically with the intention of saving enough to buy my first new car. The result - after just over a year or so - was a shiny new red VW Golf costing £4500. I paid cash and it felt good. I've been fortunate enough to be able to buy the odd new car as and when the fancy took me, but mostly I usually settle for 6 to 12 month old ones.

I'm slightly younger than you Keith, and I chose to take my personal pension a couple of years ago for health reasons. My partner and I have also recently sold another property we had, and I'll be using part of this sum to finance the eNiro . I don't normally make a habit of buying 30k cars, but I've never had a foreign holiday ( nor do I want one) so I just felt I'd do it this once. 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 22:09:38

Keith Miles 221/07/2019 22:09:39
165 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by IDD15 on 21/07/2019 21:10:37:
EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

Did I decry efforts to find solutions? Don’t think so.

MY “beloved” petrochemical industry? What a silly and baseless comment. I have never even been employed by them or bought their shares.

Some of the comments being made in this thread (a common affliction, it seems) are akin to the reaction one gets from certain religious groups when they feel that their faith is being attacked.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be ashamed of all the copper wire I’ve installed? More silly nonsense.

ALL of us play, and have played our part in damaging the planet on a daily basis but I doubt that any of us did so, or do so, deliberately, in order to damage the planet.

We will also continue to do so, the only change would seem to be the extent to which we do so and the nature of the damage that we do.

There’s a word for the cause.

Consumerism.

I doubt that technology can find a solution to that nor to, as already mentioned, an ever increasing population.

It could even be argued, in fact, that technology has made both problems worse.

I don’t have the answers and I’m sceptical of those who claim that they do.

Rich too22/07/2019 06:34:00
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2911 forum posts
1046 photos
Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:51:18:

Well I bought my first brand new car in my early 20's Keith. I was working for a fairly large company at the time, flogging my tripe out working 50 or 60 hours a week. I opened a second bank account specifically with the intention of saving enough to buy my first new car. The result - after just over a year or so - was a shiny new red VW Golf costing £4500. I paid cash and it felt good. I've been fortunate enough to be able to buy the odd new car as and when the fancy took me, but mostly I usually settle for 6 to 12 month old ones.

I'm slightly younger than you Keith, and I chose to take my personal pension a couple of years ago for health reasons. My partner and I have also recently sold another property we had, and I'll be using part of this sum to finance the eNiro . I don't normally make a habit of buying 30k cars, but I've never had a foreign holiday ( nor do I want one) so I just felt I'd do it this once.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 22:09:38

That’s fair enough Percy and good luck with it yes

Rich too22/07/2019 06:35:38
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2911 forum posts
1046 photos
Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 21/07/2019 22:09:39:
Posted by IDD15 on 21/07/2019 21:10:37:
EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

Did I decry efforts to find solutions? Don’t think so.

MY “beloved” petrochemical industry? What a silly and baseless comment. I have never even been employed by them or bought their shares.

Some of the comments being made in this thread (a common affliction, it seems) are akin to the reaction one gets from certain religious groups when they feel that their faith is being attacked.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be ashamed of all the copper wire I’ve installed? More silly nonsense.

ALL of us play, and have played our part in damaging the planet on a daily basis but I doubt that any of us did so, or do so, deliberately, in order to damage the planet.

We will also continue to do so, the only change would seem to be the extent to which we do so and the nature of the damage that we do.

There’s a word for the cause.

Consumerism.

I doubt that technology can find a solution to that nor to, as already mentioned, an ever increasing population.

It could even be argued, in fact, that technology has made both problems worse.

I don’t have the answers and I’m sceptical of those who claim that they do.

I totally agree with your last few points.

The government have to be seen to be doing something.

Doc Marten22/07/2019 13:04:54
358 forum posts
4 photos

It's interesting to hear that the government has announced a clamp down on e-scooters, seems contrary to the perks and encouragement given to e-bike users. Mixed messages from the government as to their commitment to green transport ?

Edited By Doc Marten on 22/07/2019 13:06:43

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