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Electric Cars.

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Toni Reynaud14/08/2019 15:26:56
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Gross overpopulation is the elephant in the room unfortunately

Not necessarily. Selfishness and poor distribution of assets count for a lot.

Other than that, nigel r's post 12/08/2019 15:23:38 presents a sensible picture that I have seen previously - as child deaths decrease in a society and culture, the birth rate follows.

Don Fry14/08/2019 17:12:52
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The elephant in the room is our profligate use of energy. A single plane trip to New York produces about a metric ton of CO2. That, I read, is more than the average citizen generates in a year in 56 countries.

But we have an idea of reducing energy use by the adoption of electric vehicles, and part of that adoption, is the subsidy of buying and running them. That includes high performance cars like the top end Teslas, Jaguar, and while there, SUVs at a couple of tons each. Not small energy use cars. And this is the next big thing?

10 years down the road we might just have an eureka moment, when the electric fleet we have been pursuaded to buy is as useful in the long term as the diesel fleet we were encouraged to buy.

Nigel R14/08/2019 17:13:47
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Shaun - thank google not me smiley

Nigel R14/08/2019 17:23:48
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Agreed, Don.

**LINK**

The pie chart is interesting though; cars at 40% are clearly the biggest "single contribution" to greenhouse gas emissions.

If we all drive electric cars then all that section simply drops off the chart and moves into another graph labelled "emissions from power generation" which conveniently makes it a somebody else's problem (apologies to Mr Adams) as far as the car industry is concerned.

On a more serious note, air travel is so much less frequency that, despite its very high emissions, it is still a quarter of the private car emissions.

Also on a serious note, I see that emissions and waste from brakes and tyres are being examined in electric cars, perhaps with a view to using these components as a proxy measure for levying an electric car version of the road tax.

Frank Skilbeck14/08/2019 17:42:11
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Posted by Nigel R on 14/08/2019 17:23:48:

Also on a serious note, I see that emissions and waste from brakes and tyres are being examined in electric cars, perhaps with a view to using these components as a proxy measure for levying an electric car version of the road tax.

Not just electric cars but all cars, **LINK**. But electric cars seem to make their brakes last a lot longer due to the regenerative braking where slowing down re-charges the battery. Lots of users are able to drive round with hardly touching the brakes (electric cars are set up so the brake lights come on when you take your foot off the throttle in certain regenerative modes), Nissan call it one pedal driving. But tyre emissions are not propulsion type specific.

Keith Miles 214/08/2019 17:59:45
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Life being too short to check back over nearly 90 pages, and on the VHS/Betamax analogy, did anybody mention, or remember, Video 2000?

In order, I seem to remember that these three technologies were Panasonic, Sony and Philips.

I also seem to recall that Video 2000 was, in technical terms, considered to be the superior technology but also the most expensive and “market forces” quickly killed it off.

I was also reading something recently about bio-fuel but, again, that has its downsides. Availability of land and resultant soil erosion are, apparently, just two of them.

Finding an energy production technology sufficient to meet current and future demands and also one that has little or no downside would seem, currently, to be either a “Holy Grail” or a forlorn hope.

How long before we start mining the moon, I wonder?

Don Fry14/08/2019 19:01:05
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Kieth , you have a fine memory, Video 2000 shunted a dead memory in my wine soaked machine.

I once read a science fiction novel, of a species, who having escaped their world, and colonised other worlds, got stuck. Because, the inhabitants of the inner sphere of expansion could not escape to the virgin planets. Then the usual 4 horsemen arrive in your street.

On a happy note, palaeontology describes "weedy species" as good survivors. Homo Sapiens looks to be well weedy. Survive anywhere. Just.

J D 814/08/2019 19:27:56
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The elephant in the room is population growth, a problem so large that no one wants to talk about or has any idea what to do about .

Whatever energy savings or savings of other resources can be achieved the continued exponential growth of human population can only result in disaster for millions.

Edited By J D 8 on 14/08/2019 19:28:25

Keith Miles 214/08/2019 19:52:28
170 forum posts
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Don,

“...shunted a dead memory in my wine soaked machine”.

Nice,

Positively Shakespearian!

smiley

JD8,

I share your pessimism. We seem to be constantly playing catch-up and are fast running out of energy.

(See what I did there?)

smiley

Don Fry14/08/2019 20:39:14
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JD8, good, but might be regretted when those 4 horsemen ride down your street.

There are posts above about inflatables. Try the population of Bangladesh on the move, because they might be in danger of inundation. What will you do, or support on your behalf, to keep them from your shores.

You mention continued exponential growth. I believe the growth rate is decreasing. I don't for a moment applaude, or encourage our numbers, but they are not on an exponential curve up.

Gary5214/08/2019 21:31:57
11 forum posts

It would seem to me that if we are trying to substitute an electric version of a 2 ton SUV for an electric one, we are on to a loser.

Real progress in range and efficiency, as well as cost, can only come when the need for an NCAP compliant metal bodied car can be substituted by a much lighter and affordable vehicle that does not need to protect it's occupants to the same extent. This would require a meaningful and close to 100% efficient collision avoidance systems or by a drastic reduction in vehicle speeds.

Just imagine if BMW Mercedes and Audi drivers couldn't travel at 90 mph everywhere - I am sure there would be an outcry. (for the sensitive, this is merely sarcasm)

Gary

Erfolg19/08/2019 21:05:29
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The world population growth really is one of the elephants in the room.

There are graphs that really do show an near to exponential; growth rate other than that y is not at 1 etc. these tend to start pretty much at pre history.

There are others that show a y =mx+c type graph, which is very much using very recent data.

Some experts argue that the rate of growth will slow, then after some time go into a slow decline. This conjecture rather than fact, which may or possibly not happen on its own.

I personally see over population of this country is a real issue, and appears to be a real issue world wide.

How does this effect electric cars, I am not sure at all. I know that the so called rare earths used in both batteries and motors are not that rare. It just takes a lot of energy to extract them from the ground. Which still leaves me thinking that without an energy audit from cradle to grave, for the production of all the components of the electric economy, in addition to a similar audit for the Carbon economy.

It recently struck me that a BBC programme called Live well for Less, or similar, were saying that householders could save money by buying cheaper this, that, and the other. There is no saving if your current Hair Drier or mixer works. It has to need replacing for the saving option to be viable.

In a similar vein, I was traveling with my daughter on a train where she was adamant, that the diesel multiple unit should be scrapped and replaced with a similar electric train. Disappointedly my argument that a conventual electric train, was not sensible for a line carrying just 4 train a day, Any improvement in efficiency would not be seen when all of the operational and infrastructure elements were factored in. More CO2 could be generated than ever saved by such a policy, Trying to suggest that the electric saving was more to do with not having to carry the fuel than other aspects.

Some recent figures on electric cars indicated that they were heavier than their equivalent IC versions. This appeared to be th batteries from what was written. Crash testing these vehicles must be more of a challenge.

It does appear that my salesman was correct, in that the current vehicles are prototypes that the public are testing, The manufactures are in no rush to produce millions. An interesting notion put forward, that in order to optimise range, that if the destination is entered into the sat nav, the computer will assess the hills obstacles on the route and plan the energy usage, for that person driving. Other indication.

From some tests done and in line with theory, fast or slow acceleration uses the same energy to achieve the speed. The wastage comes form the driving style of boy racers.

Frank Skilbeck19/08/2019 21:13:03
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4430 forum posts
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Posted by Gary52 on 14/08/2019 21:31:57:

It would seem to me that if we are trying to substitute an electric version of a 2 ton SUV for an electric one, we are on to a loser.

Real progress in range and efficiency, as well as cost, can only come when the need for an NCAP compliant metal bodied car can be substituted by a much lighter and affordable vehicle that does not need to protect it's occupants to the same extent. This would require a meaningful and close to 100% efficient collision avoidance systems or by a drastic reduction in vehicle speeds.

Here you go **LINK** wink

Erfolg19/08/2019 22:41:21
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It is almost certainly built to "single vehicle approval", which i understand is not required to be crash tested or demonstrate it meets in principle the commercial requirements of a mass produced vehicle.

In this case it is reminiscent of the 1950s Messerschmidt.

Some people do not seem to like SUVs, which many women with families love. I am coming round to them. myself.

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