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bouncebounce crunch22/01/2018 21:23:43
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I am either rambling or don't know what i am talking about most of the time but i do wonder if.

With the Scale competition models on national and world championships getting larger and very expensive it has become a very elite part of our hobby and out of reach for many. enjoyable to watch though.

I wonder if a 20- 30cc scale category would give more people an opportunity to participate at the top level for a national or world class trophy.

bbc

Concorde Speedbird22/01/2018 21:26:23
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Isn't there a weight limited category being introduced? I may be speaking nonsense but I am sure I heard it somewhere.

bouncebounce crunch22/01/2018 21:33:18
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great to hear that CSB

I am usually speaking nonsense anyway

Concorde Speedbird22/01/2018 21:42:00
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I can't find where I found that information which may or may not be true. Danny Fenton would be the man to ask.

John Stainforth22/01/2018 21:58:03
329 forum posts
39 photos

I am with you here. The cost of model aircraft goes up exponentially with size and for the Large Model category it seems that one needs a large van or trailer.

In the US, warbird meets for intermediate sized models are very popular.

Geoff S22/01/2018 22:31:00
3585 forum posts
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I wasn't aeromodelling back in the 80s/90s but wasn't there an engine size limit of .60 cu in (10cc) at one time? I've just completed a Percival Mew Gull from the Skyways Models plan pack and the engine size suggested was a .60 which seemed small to me for such a relatively large model (72" ws). It was what persuaded me to build it with electric power and it certainly flies OK on 6S.

The flying only at the Nationals was won with a foamie electric Venom. It was a very nice and fairly expensive foamie but a foamie never the less and not huge (1.6 metre ws?). However I think the rules for the top class have something about the builder of the model so you'd have to build it yourself and have loads of documentation to demonstrate the accuracy of the model which seems to me to be more of a difficulty than the size.

Geoff

Edited By Geoff Sleath on 22/01/2018 22:34:58

Peter Jenkins22/01/2018 23:08:33
1515 forum posts
247 photos
Posted by bouncebounce crunch on 22/01/2018 21:23:43:

I am either rambling or don't know what i am talking about most of the time but i do wonder if.

With the Scale competition models on national and world championships getting larger and very expensive it has become a very elite part of our hobby and out of reach for many. enjoyable to watch though.

I wonder if a 20- 30cc scale category would give more people an opportunity to participate at the top level for a national or world class trophy.

bbc

BBC - you may be confusing the LMA size models with those that are used in formal competition. The BMFA Scale competition rules, which mimic the FAI rules, can be found on the BMFA website and are here. Section 6.3 deals with RC Scale and there are 2 categories - scale (F4C) and stand off scale (F4H). The weight limit for both is 15 Kgs without fuel or motor batteries. There is no limit on the size or number of IC engines, gas turbines or electric motors but electric systems are limited to 72 volts. The key point is that they fall under the 20 Kg limit at which model aircraft cease to be models and become classified as full size but for which in the UK we have a derogation by the CAA allowing the LMA to certify the build and flying competence of the airframe/pilot.

Stand Off Scale often has ARTF models flown and it is there to do just what you were referring to as regards cost and complexity. Hope that gives you the steer to get into flying Stand Off Scale using a standard ARTF Scale Model. I'm sure you would enjoy it and it needn't cost you an arm and a leg.

Peter Miller23/01/2018 08:35:41
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10947 forum posts
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Now me, I am old fashioned.

I liked the days when there was a 10 lb limit and anyone had a chance of building a winning model.

They then said "Ah but we can't get the detail in"

Well people DID get the detail in and everyone was in the same situation.

bouncebounce crunch23/01/2018 10:16:48
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My thoughts were that there would be a larger pool of possible participants if the engine size was reduced from those 100 or 250cc machines, beautiful as they are it gives a poor guy like me no chance of competing at top level world or national championships.

I definately don't have the skills right now to put a masterpiece together but it could inspire others to try if the models were in a comfortable, convenient and affordable engine size. I know i would have a go if it were so.

formula 1 although not the same has had some similarities in that biggest budget helps a long way to the winners podium. the same names pop up time and again as they have the budgets to be there. I am not trying to take away from the absolutely great skill and talent to produce those flying machines that take out the top spots in aeromodelling it is just out of reach to the average bank balance. mine is less than average.

maybe an undercard of scale models in the 60, 90, 120 and 150 size engines non arf?

me rambling again just shoot me and put me out of my miserytea

Denis Watkins23/01/2018 10:32:18
4326 forum posts
104 photos
Posted by bouncebounce crunch on 22/01/2018 21:23:43:

I am either rambling or don't know what i am talking about most of the time but i do wonder if.

With the Scale competition models on national and world championships getting larger and very expensive it has become a very elite part of our hobby and out of reach for many. enjoyable to watch though.

I wonder if a 20- 30cc scale category would give more people an opportunity to participate at the top level for a national or world class trophy.

bbc

Spot on BBC

Non rural flyers are mainly in this category in my view. We can just about fly 30cc far enough out to remain away from " the no fly zones "

50 - 100cc is out of the question, due to the " sky " needed for scale flying.

Therefore unable to even practice fly 50 - 100cc, as well as afford it

20 - 30cc IMHO too would offer more club flyers more of a chance.

We do see scale fly ins dotted about through the summer but are not in abundance, perhaps due to club sized models

Cuban823/01/2018 10:48:32
2909 forum posts
1 photos

I think the flying only category is excellent and removes much of the excuse for not 'having a go' with a model that at the very least resembles a full size machine.

I don't have the skill, enthusiasm, etc etc to produce a nationals class scale model from scratch, but I do enjoy building and flying scale(ish) models to the best of my limited ability for my own amusement and I suppose I'm typical of many others in the hobby.

Would I enter a proper competition? Flying only perhaps, but just really for a day out as an opportunity to fly somewhere different and meet new modellers, something along the lines of the Modelair days at OW. It's nice to be appreciated by one's peers, but the fierce competitive side of the hobby is not for me.

Peter Jenkins23/01/2018 10:54:20
1515 forum posts
247 photos

Guys, the weight limit of 15 Kgs would tend to indicate that 20-30 cc should be the size of engine to to power a scale model of that weight. So, I don't understand the constant reference to 100 - 300 cc engines. As I see it, the vast majority of Club Pilots shy away from anything to do with Competition. This applies to any form of competition and not just scale.

The introduction of F4H, Stand Off Scale, allows ARTFs to be entered with the emphasis more on flying than on scale detail. Geoff Sleath has pointed out that the Nats Flying only was won with a foamy. You can add further scale detail to your ARTF or plan build to enhance the static score but we come back to having to fly in a competition.

As for the F4C, or "proper" scale, I suspect that there is so much work to be done to produce the level of detail that is required to be competitive that it puts many average club pilots off. Having spent thousands of hours on building, finishing your masterpiece, I would think that the nervous energy required for the maiden flight would be considerable.

I'm sure that a 10 cc ARTF scale model that is flown very well will do well in the Stand Off Scale competitions that are run. There is nothing to stop such competitions being held in Clubs or between local Clubs but I suspect we come back to that word Competition and the fact that it puts off a lot of pilots who just want to fly for fun. I know that the BMFA's Scale Committee is always keen to see new pilots give stand off scale a go so - pluck up your courage and give it a go! smiley

Peter Miller23/01/2018 11:01:00
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10947 forum posts
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The original Old Warden Scale days were the best of all events. A huge range of superb models at civilised sizes.

Our club used to take a coach every year. In those days we flew control line and we always made an effort to come up with some really unusual scale subjects.Such as the Sipa Caproni flying barrel Th e Tansavia Airtruck etc

Erfolg23/01/2018 11:21:33
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11706 forum posts
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There is a definite shift away from all forms of competetion with RC models, speaking with a FF organiser, it also seems true int hat area.

I have mixed feelings with respect to very large models, who and where they are flown. The models are the larger end are impressive. Potentially, that is the probability of serious damage from a large model will be higher (although this raise ire of it is chuck gliders that have the biggest payouts for accidents argument). Dependant on where and who is about a large model crash is far more news worthy.

I now see quite a lot of +50cc models flying, they are not a very small group anymore. I do accept that they very much seem to fly more reliably , whatever the weather than my toy town models can.

I think serious soul searching with respect how big large models can be allowed to become, when flown as everyday models, particularly as to suitable locations. There are some rules at present, most if not all opertors of these models are responsible. The danger lies if we all keep building much bigger models, without further consideration of the adequacy of existing arrangements, with respect to the less responsible.

As for competitions, do not see it happening, particularly with the apparent skewed aging modelling demographic. Us old uns, are no longer interested, youth is required.

Martyn K23/01/2018 14:56:48
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5074 forum posts
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(Apparently), there is a new BMFA Stand Off Scale class with a mass limit of 5kg. Perfect for your 60/120FS sized models. PM Andy Sephton if you need more info or check the BMFA Scale Committee website (which needs updating).

Martyn

Andy Symons - BMFA23/01/2018 15:57:47
616 forum posts
1 photos

This was the winner of the 2017 Scale British National Championships for flying only. An ARTF foamie DH Venom.

Edited By Andy Symons - BMFA on 23/01/2018 15:58:04

Cuban823/01/2018 16:23:18
2909 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Martyn K on 23/01/2018 14:56:48:

(Apparently), there is a new BMFA Stand Off Scale class with a mass limit of 5kg. Perfect for your 60/120FS sized models. PM Andy Sephton if you need more info or check the BMFA Scale Committee website (which needs updating).

Martyn

I believe there was a mention of this in a recent RCM&E, does sound interesting and hopefully will bring some nice 'club scale' type models out from the shadows. An ideal meeting for the National Centre, I'd have thought. Correct - Scale website way out of date.

The age demographic is a worry -  as we all age, it's likely that we'd be less inclined to travel very far for a day's flying (I know it doesn't stop a few hardy souls though) and most youngsters will find hanging about all day waiting to fly scale maneuvers, a bore, which is a great shame.  One leads your horse to water etc...........

Edited By Cuban8 on 23/01/2018 16:31:43

Yorkman10/12/2019 12:38:40
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306 forum posts
22 photos

Just thought I'd tag onto this thread. As I should have a lot more free time in 2020, I'm thinking about trying my hand in 'flying only' in the sub-5kg class.

Who's doing this, any dates/venues, and any tips? The bmfa site is only listing indoor comps at the moment (that I can find anyway!).

I have looked at the competition rules and worked out the manoeuvres I can fly with a York and Bombay, and if nothing else it will give a purpose to my flying in future, practising figure 8s and descending circles rather than bimbling aimlessly around the sky...

John Minchell14/12/2019 11:26:48
18 forum posts
1 photos

There is indeed a 'Light Scale' class of 5kg max weight. The F4C and stand off scale classes are indeed 15kg max weight. And of course there is a flying only class, which although still has the 15kg limit, most people fly ARTF be it foam or built up wood models at smaller sizes. So there is a place for all sizes, weights and engines / motors including the lamented older class of 10cc model. There is really no barrier to getting into a competition if you are willing to have a go. The judges don't bite and all the other competitors are willing to help and assist newcomers as we all realise that new people are required to keep scale going but also the hobby in general.

The scale competition calendar will be up fairly soon and of course if you really want to fly light models the Indoor RC & FF scale nationals are on April 18 &19 next year so get building.

John M

PRO for the STC

Ady Hayward26/02/2020 16:14:08
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734 forum posts
1224 photos

Hi, as John has said the light scale and Flying only is a great intro to scale flying. I'm in my 3rd season and enjoying it throughout the ups and downs. True you will be flying alongside the top flyers in the country but this is a great time to pick their brains, get good tips on building/ converting planes and of course flying them well too. As I found out they don't bite and are a source of knowledge and inspiration.

Flying scale means you have to learn to fly accurately and get speed, position and timing right to get towards the top of the leader board which really does benefit your club flying too. Seeing a Spitfire whip by at Mach 1 can look impressive, but will turn more heads when its done at the right speed and pitch/ roll rates and looks "Just right" in the sky. If you can pass your "A" you can already do the basics needed.

One of my best moments was a couple of decades ago flying a Precedent 1/4 scale Stampe at a Fete and after the flight an old gentleman came to me and said he loves watching the model planes, but watching the Stampe put him back in the cockpit of a Tiger Moth when he did his military training back in the 1940s.

Give it a go and check out the BMFA Scale site. I'm sure the bug will bite. Here is the link to the calendar BMFA Events

See you at the comps.

Adrian

Edited By Ady Hayward on 26/02/2020 16:15:32

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