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Seagull Dual Ace Laser Build

First build with IC

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cymaz24/02/2018 15:23:02
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7592 forum posts
981 photos
Posted by Paul Marsh on 24/02/2018 14:31:48:
Posted by cymaz on 24/02/2018 12:28:14:

So so you want to fly twins......I read this ages ago and thought “yep!”

**LINK**. How not to do it......

Doesn't count - it's not a twin, it's a triple...smiley

Edited By Paul Marsh on 24/02/2018 14:35:56

True....but he had a wing engine out. Slammed open the throttle and oops. It was a twin when it crashed , just.crying

Jon - Laser Engines24/02/2018 18:19:59
3759 forum posts
147 photos

i didn't see the video of the ju52 on my first pass.

He made 2 mistakes beyond the less than ideal landing approach.

First he smashed the throttles forward to go around. This is a bad idea on a single let alone a twin.

He then couldn't decide what to do. leave the engine on and go round, or cut it and plonk it down. In the event he sort of did both, and yet did neither and the result was clear. Looking at the video i think he would have made a go around if he had left the engine flat out and got full rudder in. Instead he forgets the rudder, throttles back, slowing down further, then piles the power on again, still with little to no rudder input, then it eventually stalls.

I know its very easy to sit here after the fact and make a judgement, but this is the sort of situation that needs a plan already in the pilots head. He should not have to even think about what to do should XYZ occur. That is why I have might flights broken into the 3 categories I mentioned earlier. I now what I'm going to do with the problem before I have even had it.

Chris Walby26/02/2018 21:44:27
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Well the dead has been done and what a lovely matched pair smiley

20180226_192220.jpg

And thanks guys for the various suggestions and advice so far with modifications and flying techniques and so I now need to move on with the build.

I know what ARTF means, but from experience nothing ever quite fits (I am sure you guys can think of a suitable meaning to the acronym?

20180226_203950.jpg

Tonight's conclusion is that everything has to shift back about 30mm (about the distance of the black section on the nacelle box), Good news is that the SLEC 9 oz tank looks a good fit if I use the space where the servo normally resides.

Due to the size of the SLEC tank it will sit a little higher and thus miss the step in the nacelle box.

I think the existing bulkhead will end up being overly perforated so I'll make new ones and beef up

The throttle servo looks to drop in behind the existing nacelle to wing support (where it is in the photo) without too many issues.

  • Sprung nose wheel on order
  • Need to pick up a couple of SLEC tanks
  • Closed loop kit for the rudder
  • Another servo as I forgot to get for the "other" elevator on

Once the engines are in I can have see how the C of G is starting to work out

cymaz26/02/2018 21:54:45
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7592 forum posts
981 photos

I reckon the Rx battery might be somewhere down in the tail ! Anyway , lovely pair blush. See that they want for nothing, can’t afford an engine out ! I can take some pictures of mine if you like...photophoto

Chris Walby27/02/2018 06:48:37
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Cymax, oh thanks for the laugh laugh and as you say it might need it to be back there however the 70 went the Speed Air and I only put 15g of lead on the tail because I wanted easy access for the RX battery on the canopy.

Photos would be appreciated of the engine and RX installation for me and anyone else looking to take on the Dual Ace.

Paul Marsh27/02/2018 19:10:41
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3238 forum posts
892 photos

Four strokes are usually more reliable than 2 strokes, I found, although one recommendation I would recommend is that run and fly each engine in another airframe first, such as a trainer, get them nicely run in and when happy with both put them back in the Dual Ace.

When new, engines may not be totally reliable, even a Laser, it would be prudent to do that, Having a engine quite, as discussed does not bode well for a test flight...

Chris Walby27/02/2018 21:02:00
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Paul,

Thanks for the advice, it would not be too difficult to pop them in in the Speed Air for run in and setting up (just keep the run time the same) as the speed air 70 was a little tight, but then again I didn't do much taxi testing before it took to the sky!

Having said that I only got a dead stick by my rubbish tuning and repeatedly doing big stall turns until it quit (don't think I'll be doing that on maiden for sure!).

The point made by Jon and others is that it will be well over powered so take off and cruising around will not need full throttle, plus I'll seek advice from a very experienced club member (if he doesn't mind?).

Progress tonight consisted of gluing the aileron, elevator and rudder hinges plus ordering the SLEC tanks and closed loop parts for the rudder. Hopefully they will arrive before being snowed in (can only hope, but unlikely with three four wheel drives in the family!).

I'll post the nacelle box modifications once I get to the workbench!

Jon - Laser Engines27/02/2018 21:08:46
3759 forum posts
147 photos

I wouldn't bother messing about flying them in the speed air. Its a different model with different tanks and a different installation so its not really going to tell you much about the reliability of the engine in the twin.

I would just go for gold but make sure you take some time to set the engines up on the ground. Do them one at a time and then just get it in the air.

If your club test pilot has no twin experience then you might as well just do the maiden yourself. If you do want someone with twin experience to give you a hand you are more than welcome to pop up to my club for a day. Wouldn't be any trouble.

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 27/02/2018 21:09:13

dave windymiller27/02/2018 21:39:48
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56 forum posts
80 photos

You will enjoy it! Mine could do many maneuvers like outside bunts which all tracked lovely. I junked the red spinners in favor of ally ones (less vibes) and make sure the engines are rigid. I used LA40s which had to be on the ends of the mounts to protrude enough. The mounts are quite flexible so the engines shook at certain revs (making it loud). I extended the mount on 1" blocks of wood so the engines were mounted further back. Make sure the nose wheel steering is sound (mine was a constant problem until i replace some bits with heavier ones)

Dont do like i did and cut out the nacelles as mirror images of each other if you have sideways mounted engines (Dohhh). Fortunately, the tops and bottoms are reasonably symmetrical so got away with having one pair upside downimag0014.jpg

 

Edited By dave windymiller on 27/02/2018 21:45:21

cymaz28/02/2018 22:10:38
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7592 forum posts
981 photos

I will get some photos done soon....but it’s too damn cold in the garage, can’t think why! face 17

CARPERFECT28/02/2018 23:27:53
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350 forum posts
5 photos

Have a look at mine.

I sold it after a couple of years, had some great fun no dead sticks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1sDiCvA7s

Chris Walby01/03/2018 08:31:11
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Hi Carperfect, Thanks for the post, your video and a couple of others have been very interesting (including the Seagull one) as it seems to come in a bit quick, but stops once on the ground (might just be camera angle), anyway a bit late now to be considering a slow fly!

I think I'll go for either ali back plate spinners or all ali, just see how I go with C of G and AUW.

Inwood parts turned up a day after I ordered (less than 24hrs!) so I have plenty to be getting on with.

Progress last night was slow due to lack of time (hinges checked and aileron servos in) so hope to get on with the nacelle boxes soon

dave windymiller01/03/2018 11:01:47
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56 forum posts
80 photos

One more thing ive remembered, some of the 4 wing bolts are a right pain unless you have little hands. I cut the heads off the bolts and wound M6 nylocks onto them to make a bolt that can be undone with a ratchet spanner or similar (the thread isnt m6 but it made for a good tight fit). Also make them just the right length. They are far too long as standard (more turns to fit / remove!).

Dave

Jon - Laser Engines01/03/2018 11:05:18
3759 forum posts
147 photos

I have noticed that many models come with wing bolts that are way too long. Its not an issue as they are easier to shorten than lengthen!

Models with 2 piece wings wind me up too. I just find them such a faff to assemble

cymaz01/03/2018 14:56:44
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7592 forum posts
981 photos
Posted by dave windymiller on 01/03/2018 11:01:47:

One more thing ive remembered, some of the 4 wing bolts are a right pain unless you have little hands. I cut the heads off the bolts and wound M6 nylocks onto them to make a bolt that can be undone with a ratchet spanner or similar (the thread isnt m6 but it made for a good tight fit). Also make them just the right length. They are far too long as standard (more turns to fit / remove!).

Dave

You are so right. I replaced mine with m6 bolts and captive nuts....

cymaz01/03/2018 15:41:58
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7592 forum posts
981 photos

Just for you Chris....

Fuel fill and some painted grill to decorate the top

engine1.jpg

engine2.jpg

engine3.jpg

The American nose wheel...

nose wheel.jpg

Main wheel....

undercarriage.jpg

Some poor pictures of the closed loop on the rudder..

tail1.jpg

tail2.jpg

Chris Walby01/03/2018 16:38:43
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Cymaz, thanks for the photos, is the grill/mesh just for checking the tank level or for ventilation as well?

PS I have a nose wheel leg on order just like that wink

cymaz01/03/2018 16:46:45
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7592 forum posts
981 photos

Just for ventilation. And for a bit of decoration

Chris Walby01/03/2018 21:37:47
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466 forum posts
68 photos

Minor progress with main U/C, aileron servos and a spot of head scratching with where to locate servos. Not difficult for the standard arrangements, however I have a question for the collective regarding the closed loop for the rudder and the push rood for the nose wheel.

Photo of servo bay with steering push rod laid in and missing the clevis's for the rudder (centre) and elevator servos on each side.

rudder closed loop and steering.jpg

Is there an elegant solution where I can use the clevis's for the closed loop and at the same time use type of connector that is used on the elevators?

One "cop out" would be to use another servo, but I am not keen unless I have to.

Thanks for your time and idea's anyone?

Denis Watkins01/03/2018 21:59:04
2718 forum posts
137 photos

Rudder and steering are usually on one servo arm Chris

The closed loop on the end holes of each side of the arm

And steering further in as this only needs a small throw

Edited By Denis Watkins on 01/03/2018 22:01:20

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