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Martin Harris18/06/2018 23:22:09
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I'm not sure how your observations differ from accusations Erf, but I'm afraid that I object to observations that I make comments which are patronising, shocking and offensive.

Clubs are - and should be - free to set their own standards of competence above any legal obligations.

My "gripe" is with those who simply feel that they are above such demeaning activities as taking a simple A test and are vocal against its adoption as a reasonable standard of capability and knowledge on the grounds that they will not lower themselves to being subjected to testing.

Erfolg19/06/2018 01:04:36
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Just in case anybody thinks I am opposed to the Schemes in principal. I do my best, to support others who run and organise workshops that underpin the schemes.

As is plain to read, I would find it easier to see the relevance of the objectives of the schemes, if they were specifically targeted at safety, not personal achievement. The irony is that many clubs and event organisers use the schemes in the context of a safety license. IMO having the schemes objective and purpose, clearly defined in context of providing proof (to these groups) that an individual was aware of their legal obligations and could operate a device safely, is more useful.

It is the light of how the schemes are generally perceived, provides me with impetus to support the schemes. In that the BMFA clubs use the "A" and "B" cert as a touchstone for safe operations, I also suspect that organisers of public events and the CAA see the schemes in a similar light.

Erfolg19/06/2018 01:10:40
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John, you seem to be deliberately misquoting me. I have never said that those who take the test are egotists. I have said many of those who do not wish to take the test feel no need to boost their egos by partaking in a personal achievement scheme, being satisfied with their competance.

Edited By Erfolg on 19/06/2018 01:16:23

Rich too19/06/2018 06:53:56
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Thanks Erfolg, I am one of those and I coincidently I am a professional wink

Martin, how do you know why we don’t want to do an A cert? Surely, that’s my choice. Perhaps i’ll change my mind, but perhaps I’ll decide I can’t be bothered and move on to something else. That doesn’t mean i feel i’m above It.

Let’s wait and see what is legislated.

Steve J19/06/2018 07:11:56
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Posted by Rich too on 19/06/2018 06:53:56:

Let’s wait and see what is legislated.

It won't be a very long wait as AN(A)O 2018 has already been laid before parliament.

Steve

john stones 119/06/2018 07:20:52
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Posted by Erfolg on 19/06/2018 01:10:40:

John, you seem to be deliberately misquoting me. I have never said that those who take the test are egotists. I have said many of those who do not wish to take the test feel no need to boost their egos by partaking in a personal achievement scheme, being satisfied with their competance.

Edited By Erfolg on 19/06/2018 01:16:23

Have a nice day Erf. face 1

john stones 119/06/2018 07:22:27
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Posted by Steve J on 19/06/2018 07:11:56:
Posted by Rich too on 19/06/2018 06:53:56:

Let’s wait and see what is legislated.

It won't be a very long wait as AN(A)O 2018 has already been laid before parliament.

Steve

Oh dear, probably do a U turn. wink

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator19/06/2018 07:41:46
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Erf, if I remember correctly you have an A-cert? Did you feel the need to boost your ego?
BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 19/06/2018 07:43:01

Peter Christy19/06/2018 08:41:50
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Posted by Erfolg on 19/06/2018 01:04:36:

As is plain to read, I would find it easier to see the relevance of the objectives of the schemes, if they were specifically targeted at safety, not personal achievement. The irony is that many clubs and event organisers use the schemes in the context of a safety license. IMO having the schemes objective and purpose, clearly defined in context of providing proof (to these groups) that an individual was aware of their legal obligations and could operate a device safely, is more useful.

Best of luck with that! I spent *years* trying to get the BMFA to recognise the purposes to which the certificates were being put. I was constantly told that the certificates were " a measure of personal achievement - no more and no less", and that if others wished to use them as some kind of license, that was up to them, and not the concern of the BMFA!!!

This despite the BMFA itself requiring a "B" cert to enter the Nationals! I was then told that you didn't need a "B" cert to enter the Nationals - you just needed one to get an entry form! Huh?!? It was then pointed out that the entry form itself stated that a "B" cert was required to fly at the Nats, but to no avail! It was like throwing snowballs at Mont Blanc - you might start an avalanche, but the mountain itself doesn't budge.....!

In fairness, that was a few years back. Since then there have been a number of changes of personnel both at the top of the BMFA and the Achievement Scheme. I believe a more enlightened attitude may now prevail - especially in view of the CAA's apparent decision to accept BMFA certificates as certificates of competence.

However, I haven't seen any change in attitude *officially* stated anywhere.......

--

Pete

john stones 119/06/2018 09:15:46
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You can fly the clubman at the Nats with an A I think ?

You can fly at BMFA Northern area Fly in with an A.

You can fly at NFC with an A.

You can fly 7 days a week at some BMFA affiliated clubs with no cert at all.

Achievement scheme is what it is, some use it for various reasons, it does get talked about a lot though.

MattyB19/06/2018 11:11:00
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It has been clearly stated in the revised ANO that the testing that will start in Nov 2019 will be theory only - no practical flying test is required. They have said that there may be a requirement for practical testing to come in at some point down the road (most likely for the pilots of larger SUAs), but clearly the earliest that could be based on current timelines in 2020, and more likely after that. I therefore humbly suggest that discussing whether a BMFA A will be acceptable at that point is, well... pretty much pointless!

PS - It's important to remember that the exemption we are receiving will be across 4 MFAs not just the BMFA. It is therefore likely that if practical competency tests were deemed a requirement at some point a degree of standardisation across the MFAs would be needed ensure the CAA is comfortable consistent standards are being met. I suspect this would end up meaning a totally new set of flying tests (for the different types of SUA) aimed at proving competency would come in alongside the current "Achievement" schemes.

Edited By MattyB on 19/06/2018 11:13:33

Steve J19/06/2018 11:34:09
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Posted by Peter Christy on 19/06/2018 08:41:50:

the CAA's apparent decision to accept BMFA certificates as certificates of competence.

What decision to accept BMFA certs? What we have at the moment is AN(A)O 2018 and a report from the BMFA that the DfT/CAA have agreed in principle to give the associations an exemption to the 400ft limit in ANO article 94A.

Steve

Erfolg19/06/2018 12:22:03
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BEB, I only took the "A" to fly at Greenacres. Later it became necessary to fly at my present club. Nothing about Personal Achievement.

My views are similar it would seem to Peter Christy, the principal purpose of the "A" is all about others accepting your competence fly alone at their site. The "B" seems to be seen in a similar light, particularly with the public present and Large or very powefrul model types.

So why not make the Mission, the purpose, to suit how they are being used and seen, with the criteria of the examination process to be tailored to the Mission/Purpose?

If this had been the stated purpose at my first club, that is to ensure a minimum understanding of the ANO and operational competance, I am pretty sure it could have be sold to the members. As a personal achievement scheme, it was seen as irrelevant.

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator19/06/2018 13:19:05
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Posted by Erfolg on 19/06/2018 12:22:03:

BEB, I only took the "A" to fly at Greenacres. Later it became necessary to fly at my present club. Nothing about Personal Achievement.

Exactly Erf, I knew that and that is my point! To assign any blanket motivation to those who do the test (egoism) or those who don't (arrogance) is completely wrong! The fact is every person has their own reasons. I did an A-cert because my club requires it of me if I want to fly solo. You did it so you could fly at Greenacres, someone else may have done it because it was something to add structure to the practice rather than just pottering around. Everyone has their own story. Yes, I suppose a few do it so they can boast about it (pretty sad that!) but most do it for other reasons. And exactly the same argument applies on the other side I think, there are many reasons why someone might not wish to take a test.

BEB

Erfolg19/06/2018 13:23:30
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BEB, It is worth noting that the area of the BMFA which I am a member strongly supports the "Achievement Schemes". The person who is responsible for organising workshops, has now two in place for this year. That the area has set aside funds for the purpose.

I am support of the schemes as the clubs in the area, use them as part of the process of managing safe flying within their clubs. It is in this context that most of the tests take place.

Although not directly involved with the schemes, I see the schemes together with sponsorship of Indoor flying, Fly-ins and so on as part of the value of the BMFA, which my area is endeavoring to deliver. For many of us the BMFA needs to be more than a Insurance Broker, that our interests go beyond support of competitions, primarily to be there for the ordinary membership.

Old farts like me see the need to stand aside, and get younger, more active people to take over and change the BMFA to an effective organisation for the 21st Century.

Cuban819/06/2018 13:24:36
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Posted by Erfolg on 19/06/2018 12:22:03:

BEB, I only took the "A" to fly at Greenacres. Later it became necessary to fly at my present club. Nothing about Personal Achievement.

My views are similar it would seem to Peter Christy, the principal purpose of the "A" is all about others accepting your competence fly alone at their site. The "B" seems to be seen in a similar light, particularly with the public present and Large or very powefrul model types.

So why not make the Mission, the purpose, to suit how they are being used and seen, with the criteria of the examination process to be tailored to the Mission/Purpose?

If this had been the stated purpose at my first club, that is to ensure a minimum understanding of the ANO and operational competance, I am pretty sure it could have be sold to the members. As a personal achievement scheme, it was seen as irrelevant.

I think you're right, Erf. Twenty or thirty years ago the 'personal achievement' aspect of the A and B could be seen as reasonable and low key - also as a convenient yardstick to judge one's ability to fly solo at many clubs and to give show organisers some degree of confidence to permit a flyer, unknown to them, to perform safely in front of the public. I understand why a lone flyer or casual group of friends operating outside of a club wouldn't be in the least bit interested in the scheme and I'm sure that will continue to be the case for quite a few flyers.

It does beg the question whether the tests should continue to be pushed as only a personal achievement and continue to be of no interest to many - or firm them up and with the recent addition of questions on the ANO etc see them as a 'license' - which then might put a whole lot of people off taking up the hobby in the first place or just be ignored anyway.

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator19/06/2018 13:37:55
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So, why might we think BMFA want to keep the whole thing as a "Personal Achievement Scheme"? I think it's because that's a "safe" position.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment - and remember you're not the government, or a government agency, so you you can't hide behind immunities. Now let's suppose you then publically declare that: "The B-cert is a certification that someone is safe to fly at public displays". OK,...

Six months later there is a serious accident at a model flying display. A pilot makes basic error, a large model flies into the crowd, many people are injured. As soon as the dust settles the lawyers get involved. They are looking for the biggest "payback" possible. Who might have a share in the liabilty and so end up "in the dock"?

Well the pilot for sure, but he is insured, he wasn't acting illegally he just made a mistake. So he's covered.

The organiser? Well as long as the layout etc where OK he's alright there, what about the fact that he booked the pilot who made the mistake? Ah, well, he'll say, I took every precaution there, I only take pilots with a B-cert and that officially approves them for public displays and I check they really do have one. This is a good defence - he'll be fine.

B-Cert, eh? so who issued that then to this pilot - was that a mistake, could they be partly liable? Oh dear, BMFA might just find themselves on the wrongside of a lawsuit here, sharing liability. OK they didn't pass the guy, but their approved area examiners approved the guys who did! They designed the test. It's their name on the top of the Certificate. They are the ones claiming this makes him competant to fly in public displays. Oh dear.

OK, its not a likely scenario, but it's definitely possible. If I were BMFA I'd do exactly what they do, I'd go on just calling it a nice, simple, no committment, little personal achieve scheme as well! Far less likely to get into trouble that way.

BEB

Erfolg19/06/2018 14:17:28
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I do accept a number of the points raised BEB.

I also take the view, that the schemes do not need to be seen as a license. As ultimately the decision of how flying is conducted should remain with the club or an organiser. I also take the view that the world and its requirements is moving on. Just as any scheme run by the CAA will not accept that an individuals non compliance is a liability; issue for them. That the argument could well be the non compliance was either unacceptable due to the person not making themselves aware of obligations or having passed the test, the individual then went on to knowingly violate the regulations.

It makes sense to me to have a mission statement that drives the process focussed on what is the purpose of a scheme, that is other than personal achievement.

It could be that the current changes in the law and regulation should be seen as an opportunity to examine what the schemes deliver and provide focus on the changes when they come. All regulators will keep you or us at arms length, although providing some pointers as to what they would like to see, or require, to enable a softer less confrontational approach. Being close to Bootle and in I now think in your previous role, you will have known and have interacted with many of the regulator staff, some probably being ex colleagues.

john stones 119/06/2018 15:23:30
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Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 19/06/2018 13:37:55:

So, why might we think BMFA want to keep the whole thing as a "Personal Achievement Scheme"? I think it's because that's a "safe" position.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment - and remember you're not the government, or a government agency, so you you can't hide behind immunities. Now let's suppose you then publically declare that: "The B-cert is a certification that someone is safe to fly at public displays". OK,...

Six months later there is a serious accident at a model flying display. A pilot makes basic error, a large model flies into the crowd, many people are injured. As soon as the dust settles the lawyers get involved. They are looking for the biggest "payback" possible. Who might have a share in the liabilty and so end up "in the dock"?

Well the pilot for sure, but he is insured, he wasn't acting illegally he just made a mistake. So he's covered.

The organiser? Well as long as the layout etc where OK he's alright there, what about the fact that he booked the pilot who made the mistake? Ah, well, he'll say, I took every precaution there, I only take pilots with a B-cert and that officially approves them for public displays and I check they really do have one. This is a good defence - he'll be fine.

B-Cert, eh? so who issued that then to this pilot - was that a mistake, could they be partly liable? Oh dear, BMFA might just find themselves on the wrongside of a lawsuit here, sharing liability. OK they didn't pass the guy, but their approved area examiners approved the guys who did! They designed the test. It's their name on the top of the Certificate. They are the ones claiming this makes him competant to fly in public displays. Oh dear.

OK, its not a likely scenario, but it's definitely possible. If I were BMFA I'd do exactly what they do, I'd go on just calling it a nice, simple, no committment, little personal achieve scheme as well! Far less likely to get into trouble that way.

BEB

yes

john stones 119/06/2018 15:34:40
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When are we gonna up the fees to pay for examiner insurance, a days wage when I attend workshops, or will we sign on the dotted line and do it voluntary

When we going to have workshops for cert holders to make sure you're current and ain't diverged ?

Or would that offend your delicate natures or deflate your egos ?

Japan just beat Columbia by the way.

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