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ericrw07/09/2018 17:41:38
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Is there a Safe receiver that enables models to take off and land itself ??

Denis Watkins07/09/2018 18:34:20
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There is Eric, take a look over this recent thread

**LINK**

Dave Hess07/09/2018 22:23:36
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Posted by ericrw on 07/09/2018 17:41:38:

Is there a Safe receiver that enables models to take off and land itself ??

To land by itself, you need a GPS module as well as the receiver with stabilisation.

Taking off without GPS is no problem. All you need is a stabilisation receiver or you can use a separate stabilisation module withe a normal receiver. Stabilisation modules start at about £12. These ones look quite good and get good reviews, though i haven't tried one myself:

**LINK**

all these things require a bit of setting up. That Cub in the link to my thread is a ready-made solution for £200 quid, and it flies really well too.

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator07/09/2018 22:58:06
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I'm sorry guys but you have this completely wrong!

I did a lot auto-flying when flying commercially, there is (as far as I am aware) no Rx that do this.

The devices you link to are just gyros. They will stabilise the aircraft in the air - assisting it to fly straight and level or to follow your commands. Any movement of the aircraft which is detected by the gyros (roll, pitch or yaw) that isn't matched by a stick input is corrected and removed - that's all.

To auto land or take off you need a flight controller and a GPS. Although the device David linked too says it a "Flight Controller - it isn't, its just a gyro. Flight controllers come with comprehensive and complex support software to programme their way-points and navigation etc.

Examples include devices such as the EagleTree Vector system etc. That particular one includes OSD failities for FPV - but can be used without. Typical prices ange from £70-200 for a decent system. They are very powerful, but be aware they are also very complex and you'll need be very computer savy.

Flight Controllers are extensively used in MR's. Most MR versions don't cross over to Fixed Wing well. Their use in fixed wing is growing but still a minority activity even within the Flight Controller world.

BEB

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator08/09/2018 10:50:44
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As a follow up on this and to try to answer the OP's original question - which it occured to me over night I hadn't actually done - sorry Eric:

From what understand, standard SAFE receivers cannot do take-off and land - they are just slightly more advanced versions of gyros that have some local programming for self righting and stuff like that.

But,...Spektrum talk of "SAFE PLUS receivers". These are supposed to be able to do more, for example a form of Return to Home auto land and loitering (flying circles about one point). It still can't auto fly or take-off.

But there are two problems as far as I can see with SAFE PLUS receivers:

1. They are not adjustable and cannot (say Spektrum) be fitted to another aeroplane than the one they are supplied in. So if you want this you must buy the whole thing, model and all!

2. To bear that out I can't find any SAFE PLUS receiver for sale separately. Plenty of SAFE receivers yes, but they don't do these things, but no SAFE PLUS receivers. I may have missed it - but well I can't find them if they are available separately.

There are threads discussing removing SAFE PLUS receivers from donor models and relocating them. But if you have no way of ajusting the control pararmeters this is unlikely to be very sucessful in my view unless the two aircraft are very similar in response - so same size/weight, similar roll and pitch rates etc.

So Eric I think the answer at the moment is "no you can't buy a SAFE PLUS receiver to do this, but you can buy a model that will do some of it"

Or you could splash out on a full blown fixed wing flight controller like the Eagletree Vector - but, as I know from experience with it, be prepared for a demending and steep learning curve if you do that!

BEB

ericrw08/09/2018 16:36:19
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Hi, my interest in such Safe receivers is because I have, because of age 87yrs and recent heart surgery, I found it necessary to fly models with the EFLR310013 Safe Rx, for eg, Apprentice. However, I have been able to install this safe Rx into other models; which takes a lot of the anxiety away. There are 3 modes, beginner, intermediate and experienced. I fly mostly in the intermediate mode and if you aim the craft in line with the Runway, and slowly reduce the throttle, it will land by itself. I expect it would also Take-Off in the same manner but I`ve not tried that yet. Anyway thanks to all who contributed.

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator08/09/2018 17:12:14
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Yes Eric, the standard SAFE Rx's can be moved - but apparently not SAFE PLUS?

Here's to you keeping on flying mate, long may you enjoy it! beer

BEB

PS Incidently, I don't think it will be very long before we do see fully integrated receivers with GPS and full auto-pilot, mission planning and way-point capablity. All the elements are there and in use but I suspect the manufacturers have decided that at present bringing them togetehr is just a bit expensive for the mass market (as far we constitute a mass market!) But it won't be long before costs come down and expectations go up!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/09/2018 17:17:04

BackinBlack08/09/2018 18:00:43
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iNav software is capable of fixed wing control when used on suitable flight controllers with GPS add on receivers.

Return to Home, circling home and auto launch/land can be configured.

Dave Hess08/09/2018 19:14:38
300 forum posts
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Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 07/09/2018 22:58:06:

I'm sorry guys but you have this completely wrong!

I did a lot auto-flying when flying commercially, there is (as far as I am aware) no Rx that do this.

The devices you link to are just gyros. They will stabilise the aircraft in the air - assisting it to fly straight and level or to follow your commands. Any movement of the aircraft which is detected by the gyros (roll, pitch or yaw) that isn't matched by a stick input is corrected and removed - that's all.

I don't think it is wrong . The Carbon Cub+ has a receiver with GPS and gyro. It can take off, fly around in it's own restricted zone (3 options) and land by itself exactly where it took off. All you need to do is open the throttle to take off and push a single button for three seconds to land. That's what we tested in this thread:

**LINK**

PatMc08/09/2018 20:26:11
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Posted by Dave Hess on 08/09/2018 19:14:38:

I don't think it is wrong . The Carbon Cub+ has a receiver with GPS and gyro. It can take off, fly around in it's own restricted zone (3 options) and land by itself exactly where it took off. All you need to do is open the throttle to take off and push a single button for three seconds to land. That's what we tested in this thread:

**LINK**

Isn't that a model using the SAFE+ Rx that BEB described in his second post ?

Do you know of a retailer selling the SAFE+ Rx that doesn't come in a package with the model ?

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator08/09/2018 21:01:45
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Sorry Dave you are wrong!

1. The Carbon Cub S+ is an example of the SAFE PLUS specific models available I referred to earlier. As explained Spektrum themselves say you can't transfer the Rx. I believe them. The OP ask for an Rx, this does not fit the bill.

2. SAFE PLUS does not "fly itself". It can auto land and loiter - again a point I made earlier. Any so-called "flying itself" is just a random trip within the GPS fence - an uncontrolled "wander" in straight lines until it bumps into the fence! A random walk inside GPS boundaries is not "flying itself" in my or most people's books!

3. The Rx you actually linked to doesn't even do that! It is just a Gyro, that you think you can link to GPS and some miracle it will enable a plane to fly itself. It won't.

You are I'm afraid wrong. As I say I have used these technologies I know what they are capable of.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/09/2018 21:03:21

Dave Hess09/09/2018 00:27:15
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You can buy the receiver and GPS as spare parts, like you can see here from Wheelspin. The carbon Cub comes in BNF version, so presumably these will work with any compatible Spektrum 6+ channels transmitter (not DX6i).

**LINK**

Failing that, I've seen them sold on USA RC forums for around $50. I bet they'll turn up on our Ebay sooner or later from crashed planes.

If that's not enough, you can always buy a BNF cub or Sportsman and take the stuff out of it, then sell the rest as spares to repair all the crashed ones.

I guess you can make any definition what you think flying itself means, but I would say that a plane that can fly around the sky without flying away, without going out of control and with no input from a transmitter is flying itself.

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/09/2018 00:34:28

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator09/09/2018 07:34:04
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You just don't get it do you Dave? Following your link ultimately takes you here. Look at the "Compatibility" conditions, it lists the part numbers:

HBZ3200, HBZ3250
 
And only those. They are the part numbers for the Carbon Cub +. Its a spare for thsat plane and that plane only. In other words, its as I said told you now three times, this only works in one model! Spektrum themselves say this in their blurb on SAFE PLUS quoting from them
"A SAFE Plus receiver is not intended to be taken from one model and placed into another and it's AS3X gain settings are not adjustable"
 
You will find that here near the bottom of the page.
 
On that page, nearer the top, you will find a table of SAFE and SAFE PLUS capabilities. They do not list auto flight! They list auto landing and loitering together with the standard gyro facilities of pitch and roll stabilisation.
 
Please read the literature as I'm getting a bit bored repeating the same things over and over!
 
BEB
Dave Hess09/09/2018 14:01:23
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Let's take a step back and think about this for a bit: The receiver and gps modules have no idea what plane they're in. If Hobbyzone were really clever, they could at most lock the receiver to the ESC, but I'd be surprised if they have done that. That means that all the functions will still work if you install them in a different plane. Whether they work well, we can't say at the moment unless anybody has already tried it and reported on it.

We know that similar stabilisation receivers have gain adjustment on the main controls for the stabilisation, but most reviews I've seen mentioned that the stabilisation worked OK on default settings. The gain was only needed to fine-tune the 3D mode. I would place any bet that if you took the Carbon Cub+ stuff and put it in a medium sized normal plane, it would work. Obviously, the nearer it is to the size, weight, speed and style of the Cub, the better.

I would guess that there are two main reasons that Hobbyzone say that these modules are only for the Carbon Cub+. Firstly, they don't want to accept any liability when someone fits it in a gas turbine jet expecting it to land automatically when they press the land button. Secondly, there must have been some collaboration with Spektrum to get the software right, and they want to get the best commercial advantage for their work/ideas. Personally, I wouldn't take much notice of what they say in that respect. They can't change physics.

Note that they say "can" produce unexpected results, not "will".

"Q- Can I take the receiver out of my SAFE equipped model and put it in something different?

A- It is not recommended. SAFE equipped receivers are specially tuned for the aircraft it came with. Putting it in a different aircraft can produce unexpected results, resulting in incorrect or over correction of the control surfaces and potential aircraft damage."

Whether it works or not, we can't say either way at the moment, but I have enough confidence to try it in another plane. I've ordered a couple of Flitetest planes, which should come soon, so I'll take the receiver and GPS out of my Cub and try it. I will then report back my findings.

As an aside, you'll notice that many suppliers list these parts, but often out of stock. Is that because I'm not the only one to try it?

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator09/09/2018 14:40:11
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Dave - I give up on trying to explain to you - so here it is straight from the shoulder!

Your "advice" (which was always speculative and based on very limited experience, despite your authoritive tone) is now starting to boarder on the irresponsible. On a purely speculative basis you are now advocating going against the express instructions of the manufacturer on a safety issue.

We cannot allow that on this forum. This site has a reputation for high quality informed and responsible advice. Many modellers rely on the quality of advice offered here. We cannot allow you to come along, as a relatively new member, and put that at risk. We also of course have a responsibility for the technical accuracy and quality of any advice offered as publishers. We cannot allow you to compromise that either.

As a moderator I have explained to you at some length why your advice offered here originally was seen by us as inappropriate. I will not spend more time on that nor will take such efforts again. We expect no further posts, on this or any other thread, advising people to take courses of action which are technically ill-informed, potentially dangerous or contradict the explicit instructions of the manufacturer on safe use - especially from someone with little experience of such systems. Please take note of this.

BEB

ericrw09/09/2018 15:54:45
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One of the other models that I put an eflr130031 safe receiver into, was a "Flying Super Model" Fokker Dv11. I had to follow advice from "Rcgroups"; which entailed making alterations, within my Spectrum D6 Tx. They have a designated Blog for " Installing Safe RX into another `plane". Members have added their modified models to a list, which is quite numerous.

With regard to my model, It does not take-off or land purely by it self; you have to control only the throttle and ensure the model is flying inline with the runway ! The safe Rx automatically, adjusts the other controls .

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator09/09/2018 16:02:12
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Yes Eric, you can indeed transfer SAFE receivers, and many people have done it sucessfully. Spektrum have no issue with that particularly. As I say above such devices are really just receivers with an integrated gyro.

But not SAFE PLUS receivers - that's quite another matter. As the manufacturer Spektrum explicitly advise against it.

BEB

Ikura09/09/2018 16:02:54
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Spektrum Safe (AS3X) Receivers are programmed for the model they are fitted to but can be removed and used in other models. They are also sold separately.

Safe + Receivers are programmed only for the specific model they are supplied in. If you try using the Safe + Receiver with its geo-fencing in a different model, which has a different weight, power train, control surfaces and handling it will not work as designed or intended.

As BEB says, you are then operating a model in an unsafe, untested and irresponsible manner, which is just playing into the hands of all those tryng to restrict our flying activities.

Edited By Ikura on 09/09/2018 16:08:27

Dave Hess09/09/2018 18:18:05
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Posted by Ikura on 09/09/2018 16:02:54:

As BEB says, you are then operating a model in an unsafe, untested and irresponsible manner, which is just playing into the hands of all those tryng to restrict our flying activities.

Edited By Ikura on 09/09/2018 16:08:27

At the risk of being permanently banned, I'd say that I can understand what you mean, but testing this possibility is no more dangerous than allowing a beginner to fly a plane on a buddy box. The Auto land and stability modes can be switched off in an instance if anything goes wrong. Don't forget that I am a very experienced flyer. I can't see that there's anything reckless in what I propose.

When you look at the Youtube videos of various guys sending these planes spiralling in the moment they hit the auto-land button, you could ask the question about whether these sort of planes should be allowed at all.

This reminds me of when the safety officer came down the line of planes at my previous club picking each one up in turn and then told me that I mustn't fly mine because "the C of G was too far back" in his opinion! The same plane as I had flown 100 times before when he wasn't there. I asked him to let me demonstrate it, but he said no. He didn't even have an A certificate. I'm not exaggerating.  I guess different people have a different frame of reference. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Every time we build a plane or try anything new in it, there's a calculated risk, but we use our skill, knowledge and experience to weigh up these risks and act accordingly.

Just to make it clear, I might be new to the forum and a little out of date on the newest technology, but I was designing and flying rubber duration planes when I was 10 years old, I flew RC planes extensively for more than 14 years, in fact my wife divorced me because of it. It's actually written on her divorce application. I must have built at least 100 RC planes, many of them self designed. I have a degree in mechanical engineering and I taught electronics for 10 years. I don't believe that I'm doing anything reckless.

The Carbon Cub+ as a ready-made plane is perfect for OP. That's what I advised him in post #3. I have stabilisatin receivers in my Wat4 Foam-e and in my Hobbyzone Sukhoi, so I why can't I mention them?

I never advised anybody to put the Cub+ stuff in their plane, I only said that I thought that it would be possible and I'm going to try it. What's more dangerous: Puta gas turbine in a jet and take it to a show where there's thousands of people or put a Cub+ receiver with an instant override button in a foam plane and fly it at the local flying field? I think you need to get things in proportion. 

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/09/2018 18:19:54

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/09/2018 18:22:49

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/09/2018 18:27:16

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/09/2018 18:31:34

Ikura09/09/2018 18:33:20
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No one is questioning your flying credentials. Now you say you are a little out of date on the newest technology but you want to mess around with a receiver that is not designed or intended for the use you are going to put it to.

If that doesn't seem foolhardy then you just go right ahead, which I guess is what you plan to do anyway. If you damage something or someone then it is a little late to admit you were wrong.

The point I believe BEB is making is that this is a forum where people come to share what they are doing and pick up tips from others. This is not some Wild West American forum where they do all sorts of nutty stuff, like putting massive motors in foamies and then wonder why the front got ripped out of the model.

Newcomers and those less experienced to flying don't need this forum to be a place where they can be encouraged to do reckless things. There's a whole internet out there if you want to do crazy stuff.

Whenever you post a description of what you are proposing, you don't avoid the responsibility of what you say or do.

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