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Boeing 737 Max 8

Another one gone in, no survivors

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Nigel R14/03/2019 09:36:47
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Posted by Brian Cooper on 13/03/2019 16:06:43:

Boeing claim that the aircraft is safe. . Okay, put ALL of the Boeing management onboard and then have the aircraft do a couple of hundred hours doing takeoffs and landings (circuits and bumps).

Also, if any work has been done on the aircraft, put the mechanics onboard for the test flights.

B.C.

I can only echo LHR Dave's comments and add a development engineers point of view (I do software for the flight systems).

A brand new commercial airliner type will complete many, many thousands of flight hours before being certified by FAA. In all the combinations of conditions that they can dream up. Believe me Boeing would not have put the system being questioned on board if they did not believe it was safe, this news on top of the last one, in commercial terms alone, will cost a fortune (reparations, investigation, fixes, recalls), leaving aside the reputation damage (how many future orders will now turn A320), and the human issues of the tragedy. Safety is absolutely the key thing especially for the western aviation industry - quality of our output is paramount.

As for flight hours before commercial use, the entirely new Dreamliner for instance had 1700 flights and 5000+ hours.

Wiki suggests the MAX 8 testing was 2000 hours. I don't know how many flights that is, but probably 600 or so. As the 737 is a pre-existing airframe, much of the structural stuff and some systems will already be certified and well known in existing use. This always cuts test hours. I don't know the exact figures expected for the other MAX variants.

Geoff Sleath14/03/2019 10:44:20
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Posted by LHR Dave on 14/03/2019 08:31:49:

Mine was on B747-100

Some of my former colleagues at RR flew in an old Boeing owned 747 that was so leaky it couldn't be properly pressurised and had some training about using the oxygen masks provided. IIRC they were involved in monitoring the engines via the RF telemetry our department designed. This would have been in the early 90s I think.

So yes, engineers do fly on aircraft with engines being tested.

Geoff

kc14/03/2019 10:54:33
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Let's spare a thought for the technicians who work on passenger planes ( and some of those are on the forum it seems) - awesome responsibility!

Why did they need to find the 'Black' Box? Surely these brand new aircraft should be transmitting the data all the time after the MH370 fiasco....... or has the World learnt nothing?

Don Fry14/03/2019 11:11:37
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There are moves afoot KC, but it does not seem to be a top hurry. Early 2020's from memory.

Nigel R14/03/2019 12:43:08
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There are no certified flight information satellite transmission systems around yet. This aircraft was begun around 2010 IIRC and as ever will have been conceived and designed with "the technology of the day".

Remember, such a transmission system has to be tied in to aircraft avionics - so will not be a five minute job to knock up. It will need to be resilient and redundant to any "events" that may affect it (fire, etc) and even then will most probably only ever be an adjunct to the black box, as the vagaries of using satellite / phone / etc networks mean 100% coverage is impossible to guarantee.

Black boxes are almost always found. They are incredibly resilient devices.

Josip Vrandecic -Mes15/06/2019 09:36:05
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https://youtu.be/LQCPSXTE9Mg

Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 15/06/2019 09:41:17

Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 15/06/2019 09:45:54

Piers Bowlan15/06/2019 11:06:08
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Nigel, you may be interested in a read of this. As far as I am aware all BA aircraft are fitted with ADS-C and presumably all new aircraft come with it as standard equipment. I've no idea if the two B737 Max aircraft were fitted with it or flying in airspace with ADS-C coverage.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 15/06/2019 11:14:28

Nigel R16/06/2019 06:59:58
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Piers yes good shout, there are systems en route to work alongside radar for broadcasting position to ATC and they may include some other data. If I recall right the flightradar24 website is using ADB B data. I don't know if ATC use these yet although I believe that is the end goal along with some automated route replanning for autopilot systems. The data transmission aspect is used by the engine manufacturers for real time prognostic type operations and has other applications I expect.

For purpose of this thread I was thinking about direct black box replacements. A broadcast system might not be transmitting for a few critical moments whereas the black box is as much guaranteed as can be, to be recording right up to the end.

Geoff Sleath16/06/2019 11:18:48
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Posted by Nigel R on 16/06/2019 06:59:58:

Piers yes good shout, there are systems en route to work alongside radar for broadcasting position to ATC and they may include some other data. If I recall right the flightradar24 website is using ADB B data. I don't know if ATC use these yet although I believe that is the end goal along with some automated route replanning for autopilot systems. The data transmission aspect is used by the engine manufacturers for real time prognostic type operations and has other applications I expect.

For purpose of this thread I was thinking about direct black box replacements. A broadcast system might not be transmitting for a few critical moments whereas the black box is as much guaranteed as can be, to be recording right up to the end.

I suppose the 2 systems aren't mutually incompatible and both could be deployed. In cases where the black box can't be found at least same data will be available.

Geoff

Nigel R17/06/2019 15:12:56
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Exactly Geoff. And in cases where the aircraft is a off grid from conventional ATC, it makes predicting the recorder's location much easier.

Josip Vrandecic -Mes22/06/2019 07:53:02
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gangster23/06/2019 10:34:05
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Watched a television program last week about au in cars stopping you doing something daft. Now if the system in a multi million dollar plane can force a fatal error which trained pilots cannot correct what confidence does it give us in a a car costing a few thousand

KiwiKid23/06/2019 11:59:50
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In respect of the "trained pilots", this is an interesting development: **LINK**

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