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Commons Science and Technology Committee Enquiry on Drones

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Steve J13/07/2019 18:04:36
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Posted by Peter Christy on 13/07/2019 17:19:54:
Posted by Steve J on 12/07/2019 10:27:50:

Contrary to what she said, the EU delegated regulation does not require all UA over 250g to have electronic identification and geofencing. Only UA with automatic flight modes are required to have direct remote identification and geo-awareness.

I ask, because my understanding of proceedings like this (and I am not a lawyer!) is that misleading a parliamentary committee is as serious as misleading parliament and demands at least an apology and correction or a resignation!

I can't face listening to it again. Hopefully the transcript will be published on Monday.

The Delegated Regulation (there is a link to it at the top of CAP 1789) only requires remote identification for C1, C2 & C3 class UAs (basically RTFs with automatic flight modes). The problem is that the DfT/CAA could do what the French are doing and make the entire country a geographical zone in which all UA's require remote identification (in the French case I understand that they are exempting registered sites).

I'm hoping that she won't survive the ministerial reshuffle that is coming at the end of the month and we have a more sympathetic aviation minister in August.

Steve

PS The definition of subcategory A3 in UAS.OPEN.040 in the Implementing Regulation also makes it clear which UAs require identification.

 

Edited By Steve J on 13/07/2019 18:08:58

Peter Christy13/07/2019 18:47:39
1820 forum posts
Posted by Steve J on 13/07/2019 18:04:36:

I'm hoping that she won't survive the ministerial reshuffle that is coming at the end of the month and we have a more sympathetic aviation minister in August.

You and me both! And probably a lot of others, too!

But please keep us updated on this. You obviously are more across it than me, and we need all the firepower we can muster to try and get a reasonable outcome.

If she has mislead a committee, she could be in serious trouble!

--

Pete

Martin Dilly 113/07/2019 19:22:28
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I've just ploughed for the second time through the Baroness's evidence here:https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/1a8ec4dc-78a8-4b76-9dce-ff663ad71067

The parts that specially touch on model flying are at the roughly following times into the session: 10:44 (electronic conspicuity), 10:57 (again), 11:19 (electronic i.d. mandatory, retro-fitting?), 11:22 (clubs registering for many pilots), 11:26 (beeping drone in wrong place easy to ID, nothing about non-beeping one!), 11:28 (geo-fencing now mandatory), 11:33 (is the offence owning or flying?), 11:34 (why is our safety record ignored?), 11:35 (the idiot flying near LHR).

The fact that she keeps referring to what we do as a 'hobby' rather than a sport, which it is, can't be helping us either.

Peter Christy13/07/2019 19:36:50
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Thanks, Martin!

Steve J15/07/2019 11:04:14
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The transcript has been published on the committee website.

Questions 457, 480 & 494 cover electronic identification/conspicuity.

Steve

Martyn K15/07/2019 13:54:18
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Posted by Martin Dilly 1 on 13/07/2019 19:22:28:

The fact that she keeps referring to what we do as a 'hobby' rather than a sport, which it is, can't be helping us either.

Many people (including many model flyers) do seem reluctant to accept that Aeromodelling/Model Flying is a recognised sport and if ever there was a time to ditch the hobby or pastime moniker, now is that time.

Martyn

TigerOC19/07/2019 22:28:24
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A point I have made to my MP (Leader of the House) is something that has never been mentioned at all; Local Bye laws.

When i started flying some 8 years back I took the trouble to look at our local Bye laws and they ban the flying of all model aircraft above 100g within the borough. I live close to Dartmoor National Park and their Bye Laws are that all powered models are banned but they welcome model gliders.

I am sure that this is not unique to our town.

Rob

Edited By TigerOC on 19/07/2019 22:29:03

Peter Christy25/07/2019 13:56:38
1820 forum posts
Posted by TigerOC on 19/07/2019 22:28:24:

A point I have made to my MP (Leader of the House) is something that has never been mentioned at all; Local Bye laws.

When i started flying some 8 years back I took the trouble to look at our local Bye laws and they ban the flying of all model aircraft above 100g within the borough. I live close to Dartmoor National Park and their Bye Laws are that all powered models are banned but they welcome model gliders.

I am sure that this is not unique to our town.

Rob

Edited By TigerOC on 19/07/2019 22:29:03

I also live close to Dartmoor, but Torbay Council appears to take a more enlightened approach. Parkies who have approached model flyers using public land for silent flight and electric models have indicated that as long as the pilot has BMFA insurance, they are happy to let them continue. They probably wouldn't be so happy with a noisy IC model, but as long as common sense prevails, there appears to be no problem! (Unlike 50-odd years ago when the C/L club I belonged to got kicked off public land by a parky!)

--

Pete

Peter Christy25/07/2019 14:01:54
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I see that the new Minister for Transport is Grant Shapps. IIRC he is a keen aviation enthusiast, holds a PPL and has his own 'plane. He has been a staunch defender of General Aviation against intrusive legislation, and at the back of my mind is that he has also been a friend of model flying. Does anyone else remember this?

Anyway, now that we have an aviation enthusiast in the job, maybe - just maybe - common sense will prevail!

--

Pete

jrman25/07/2019 14:50:56
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Grant Shapps is the MP for Welwyn Hatfield.

If he's a fellow forumite's MP could I suggest they write/email him? I know he will probably be busy but it might be an "easy fix" for him.

TigerOC02/08/2019 21:33:47
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Posted by Peter Christy on 25/07/2019 14:01:54:

I see that the new Minister for Transport is Grant Shapps. IIRC he is a keen aviation enthusiast, holds a PPL and has his own 'plane. He has been a staunch defender of General Aviation against intrusive legislation, and at the back of my mind is that he has also been a friend of model flying. Does anyone else remember this?

Anyway, now that we have an aviation enthusiast in the job, maybe - just maybe - common sense will prevail!

--

Pete

In fact as Chairman of that Committee he actually wrote to the Minister requesting justification for the inclusion of the Model Flying community in this draconian system. His letter was published by the BMFA but we have not seen the response. Probably the standard response that everyone else got; Don't confuse me with facts as my mind is made up.

Rob

Peter Christy02/08/2019 22:22:07
1820 forum posts

Interesting! I wasn't aware of that.

To be fair, it will probably take him a few weeks to wade through all the stuff on his desk, and I doubt if our problem is his highest priority. In the meantime, he will just parrot the line he is fed by his civil servants.

However, if he still hasn't taken any action in (say) a month's time, perhaps it might be worth reminding him of this fact! Perhaps someone with an MP who is on side might like to prompt them to remind the minister of this?

--

Pete

 

Edited By Peter Christy on 02/08/2019 22:23:03

Former Member03/08/2019 15:00:11
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[This posting has been removed]

Peter Christy04/08/2019 08:01:54
1820 forum posts

Thank you for your input, Jeremy. Very useful!

Many of the members here started off flying control-line, and some still do! Indeed, I still have a few down in the garage myself, though I haven't flown them for a few years.

Also, I recall reading somewhere that control-line flyers will also be required to register under the proposed legislation. This makes the proposed rules even more nonsensical.

I have no doubt that the BMFA are working feverishly behind the scenes on our behalf. I am taking the silence coming from there as "no news is good news" at the moment, as it implies that delicate negotiations are ongoing.

Anyway, welcome to the forum, and again, thank you for your interesting input.

--

Pete

Steve J04/08/2019 09:04:58
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Posted by Peter Christy on 04/08/2019 08:01:54:

I recall reading somewhere that control-line flyers will also be required to register under the proposed legislation.

Control line models are tethered unmanned aircraft.

I have no doubt that the BMFA are working feverishly behind the scenes on our behalf. I am taking the silence coming from there as "no news is good news" at the moment, as it implies that delicate negotiations are ongoing.

Other viewpoints are available.

Steve

Peter Christy04/08/2019 10:00:40
1820 forum posts
Posted by Steve J on 04/08/2019 09:04:58:
Posted by Peter Christy on 04/08/2019 08:01:54:

I recall reading somewhere that control-line flyers will also be required to register under the proposed legislation.

Control line models are tethered unmanned aircraft.

I have no doubt that the BMFA are working feverishly behind the scenes on our behalf. I am taking the silence coming from there as "no news is good news" at the moment, as it implies that delicate negotiations are ongoing.

Other viewpoints are available.

Steve

Re: Control-line: But am I right in recalling that they too are required to register?

Re: BMFA: I have no inside knowledge of what is going on, but seeing as how David Phipps took the lead in the negotiations with EASA - and managed to get a better deal than many had anticipated - I believe he will be working very hard on our behalf to modify the DfT's refusal to follow those EASA recommendations.

When you are in delicate negotiations, it doesn't help to tell the other side what you are planning! Ask Theresa May!

Time will tell if I'm right or not!

--

Pete

Steve J04/08/2019 10:40:40
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Posted by Peter Christy on 04/08/2019 10:00:40:

Re: Control-line: But am I right in recalling that they too are required to register?

Re: BMFA: I believe he will be working very hard on our behalf to modify the DfT's refusal to follow those EASA recommendations.

I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think that operators of control line models will not be required to register.

In what way are the DfT and CAA not following the EU regulations?

Steve

GONZO04/08/2019 10:50:01
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I've been following this issue of CL registration on the BARTON forum and it is considered that CL planes will have to register unless a concession is granted. The current concession, that people misinterpret, is for flying CL in the newly declared 'zones' around airports/airfields.

[CL planes are tethered like kites(which do not have to register) but are remotely controlled by the pilot. It seems it is a 'grey' area.]

The DfT are following the EU EASA regs but are not taking up the option of making a concession for model flying as allowed in the regs. They are being, IMO and I would suggest the majority of aero modellers, un necessarily harsh in their interpretation/implementation of the EU regs.

Edited By GONZO on 04/08/2019 10:54:27

Former Member04/08/2019 12:12:15
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[This posting has been removed]

GONZO04/08/2019 12:38:01
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Yes, I've read all that again but according to the document and chart on page 32 of CAP 1789 plus some more recent information we still have to register, pay, take free on line foundation test of competency followed by a paid for test at a test center to gain a Certificate of Competency. Additionally, the site/airspace requirements of A3 which the majority of our models(C4 classification) will be required to operate in still applies and will mean many clubs ceasing operations. What/how does your interpretation differ?

Thanks for listing the various documents that confirm that as at present CL is lumped in with the rest of us.

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