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Phil's F-86 Sabre build thread

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Phil Cooke11/08/2019 19:28:43
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2549 forum posts
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With the project launched 1st August when the G&M Models plans and short kit went on general sale, it's been great to see so much interest in the Sabre with folk already setting up build blogs and 'claiming' colour schemes - even though building isn't formally meant to begin until 1st November!

After some lengthy deliberation, I've taken the plunge and have finalised a choice of scheme for my take on this famous fighter - the distinctive Yellow and Blue stripes of 'Team Sabre' from the Yugoslavian Air Force - who I think flew 5 x F-86 during their short existence as a display team.

There's not many photos of the real examples on the net, but it seems quite a popular choice with the plastic modellers, and indeed the flight sim community too!

3-view from a plastic kit...

team sabre 3 view copy.jpg

A screen shot from a modern day PC based simulator...

team sabre simulated.jpg

Martin Gay12/08/2019 09:50:55
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385 forum posts
254 photos

Very nice, Phil.

I didn't see that scheme when I went looking for something for the Gamma build! I think even I would be able to see that model. cool

By the way your kit is awaiting delivery to the Great Orme next month

Martin

Alan Gorham_12/08/2019 11:56:03
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1256 forum posts
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Love this jazzy scheme!

Martin Gay12/08/2019 12:51:42
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385 forum posts
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With a bit of luck we might not have very many duplicated colour schemes for the next Mass Build Event!

McG 696908/11/2019 23:51:03
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3172 forum posts
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Hi Phil,

We are about a week on our way with the MB 2020 now.

I'm looking forward to pinch as many as possible build tricks to avoid all the possible 'gotchas'...

Did you start your Yugo example yet?

Cheers

Chris

Phil Cooke09/11/2019 07:41:38
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2549 forum posts
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Hi McG - no I'm not quite able to make a start on my Sabre yet due to other work taking up the bench and my time, I should be underway in a couple of weeks.

Plenty of time for this one with us not flying until mid June - our biggest build window yet at over 7 months - but I am conscious I'll be one of the last to start! That said I'm sure my build won't raise any issues not already admirably discribed and tackled in the threads up and running - those combined with Martin's Gamma build thread give us a rich reference guide!

Peter Garsden13/11/2019 11:47:00
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1723 forum posts
1297 photos

What a fabulous scheme Mr Phil. So colourful and right up my street. As it is an aerobatic team plane, I might join you in building one of the same? Not decided yet. Easily done in film too if needed?

Phil Cooke14/12/2019 23:56:40
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2549 forum posts
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Well, I'm a little delayed starting my Sabre with work and other projects getting somewhat in the way but I'm glad to report I'm finally now off and running!

Compared to some of the other brilliant builds already well underway on this forum, my Sabre will be a fairly basic build - no flaps, no rudder. I've elected to mount a pair of aileron servos centrally in the wing driving torque rods out to scale sized ailerons, enabling a draggeron mix for landing instead of flaps, and I will be fitting droppable fuel tanks as others are already doing - bar that it will be a simple, stock build.

With a JP150 fuselage still under final construction at the other end of the bench I have elected to make a start on the wing. First I made up the 4 wing skins, all oversize front and back. On the lower pair I then marked the position of all the ribs, main spar and sub T/E against extended lines on the board.

wing skin 1.jpg

Main spar and T/E added to the lower skins, I've beefed up the sub T/E a little on thickness - now 1/4" - to allow for the torque rod pivot inserts later in the build.

wing skin 2.jpg

'Gettin' Jiggy with it...' I must admit I think this is rather clever and i did enjoy slotting it together! nerd

wing skin 3.jpg

With the wing jig pinned out all square and true, and with R1 fitted with a 1.5mm cap to allow the wing sheeting to correctly seat on the inboard guide, the first wing skin can be offered up to its bed.

wing skin 4.jpg

Next job is to open up the spar slots and angle the T/E and L/E faces on each of the ribs for the sweep angles before they are dropped in one by one with a splash of cyano.

A little bit of inspiration... The blue stripes on this scheme seem to vary a lot from reference to reference - in this case - a 1/72 scale model - the stripes are more grey than blue! I will be sticking with a blue stripe and underbelly I think... but of course final paint selection is a problem for another day!

sabre scheme 1.jpg

Edited By Phil Cooke on 15/12/2019 00:00:19

McG 696915/12/2019 10:20:37
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Great to have you finally on board, Phil. yes

I'am now hesitating to change my plans regarding the wing control surfaces, to skip the flaps and to go with the aileron torque rod idea w/ dual servos.

Is 2mm okay for the torque rod or should it be 3mm?

Is the 13gr Turnigy 90S metal gear as Martin uses (2,5kg @ 6V) still OK? or should I go for a 'heavier' one?

Apologies for being already asking daft questions... blush

IMHO, the French Blue color is looking a lot better than the 'grey' version.

Cheers

Chris

Phil Cooke15/12/2019 16:10:59
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2549 forum posts
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Hiya Chris,

No 'right' answers here, I'm using torque rods in an attempt to keep the underside of the wing clean whilst still allowing an aerodynamic function to slow things up a little on landing - I've never been a big fan of drooping flaps on a low wing PSS model and the draggerons work really well on the A-4 and Hurricane.

I will be using 3mm torque rod material, I think 2mm is a little 'springy' in torsion. As for servos (not bought them yet) I will be using something like a Hitec 85MG like on the A-4, a well proven mini servo not too dissimilar to the Turnigy 90S MG.

McG 696915/12/2019 18:48:04
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your real fast answer.

Keeping the underside clean might be one of the major concerns on PSS apparently.

So I'll stick to your advices, using a 3mm rod and keep going with the 90S MGs as I already have them.

I'll wait in anger to your decision on how to go and design the torque rods... and 'stoutly' copy it... wink

Cheers

Chris

 

Edited By McG 6969 on 15/12/2019 18:49:56

McG 696901/01/2020 18:11:19
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Hello Phil,

First of all my best wishes for a great new decade and of course a successful PSSA outcome.

I'm looking forward to use some torque rods for my Sabre wing as I think you're planning to do.

You mentioned "scale sized ailerons", but are the torque not 'extremely' long then (even for 3mm diameter)?

Can the 'bearings' be styrene tubes or snake externals & not have the full length of the rod?

Should I 'thicken' the wing sub-trailing edge as you did right away when building yours?

How do you handle the wash-out of the aileron???

Apologies in advance for all those questions... blush

Cheers

Chris

Phil Cooke02/01/2020 15:58:12
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2549 forum posts
1795 photos

Hi Chris,

Happy New Year!! I've taken some time out away from my work and indeed my modelling over the past 2 weeks so I'm all charged now and ready to get my Sabre moving with some pace! - conscious I'm playing 'catch up' with so many builds approaching maturity!

No probs with all the questions, this is after all one of the key 'Mass Build' aims to share knowledge and ideas!

Yeah the M3 torque rods will be fine at this sort of span - no problems and well proven on previous builds like the Hurricane. Relatively the air speeds and aerodynamic loads on our PSS models are pretty low. With a scale aileron sitting just outboard of the wing pylon a standard 15" torque rod will suffice (mine are bought from SLEC) and these come pre fitted with 4 sections of pinned plastic tubes, it doesn't need a full length bearing tube, although of course this could be employed if desired.

I thought a thickened sub-T/E was a good idea only because the pins on these tubes would need a bit more purchase, they are 1/2" long - of course you could locally add balsa to thicken it up as shown for the hinges on the plan - same logic.

In my mind the washout question is the same whether you have full length ailerons or shorter ones for scale. As we know the main wing section has the washout incrementally built into its form from root to tip thanks to the clever wing jig... in all cases the strip aileron needs to be either twist warped (using steam or ammonia) along its length - to create the compliant shape (its only a couple of degrees along that length) or - as per the Jet Provost builds, you could use a slightly oversize aileron stock and sand the blended twist into the flying surface. I will use the ammonia method - before cutting the aileron section to length.

But Im not at that stage yet, I still have to complete my basic wing assembly! embarrassed

McG 696902/01/2020 18:21:37
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the wishes and for your guidelines.

I will be trying to make my own torque rods with 3mm piano wire then. Adding a few (three or four, I guess) styrene bearing tubes before bending. I don't mind buying the SLEC ones but the postage to BE probably triples the prize...

I also will be adding a bit of thickness (3mm) to the sub-T/E where needed between the hinge blocks. I already tried to remove those blocks intended for the flaps but the 'surgery' isn't worth it.

I think I go for the full length 'ammonia' method as well, but how do you 'fix' the triangular stock temporarily to the wing allowing the ammonia to evaporate... ?

Thanks again & cheers

Chris

John A H02/01/2020 23:37:36
138 forum posts
173 photos

You can tack glue the aileron to the wing using 4 - 5 small blobs of thick superglue (CA) at intervals along the trailing edge. Once finished with the shaping just slide a sharp blade between the trailing edge and the aileron to cut through the blobs and release it. If you are bending/shaping the ailerons with this method I would also clamp the two ends of the aileron (root trailing edge and the wing tip) between some scrap balsa.

You might be able to get away with treating the aileron with water or ammonia and then putting the "twist" in by hand and then checking it against the wing, keep easing more bend in until it matches the correct root/tip profile. It maybe possible to accomplish by just brushing water onto the underside of the aileron and then twisting and clamping into place until the water dries off.

Best to do all this before you put any bevel of hinge cutouts in.

McG 696903/01/2020 10:12:19
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Thank you for the guidelines, John A H. yes

Hi Phil,

Regarding the SLEC torque rods, the only ones I found are SL113-R and are only 14 swg, which seems to be just over 2mm diameter..?

I guess it would be an advantage if the clevis is adjustable at the servo end, but your 'Top Gun' A-4 seems to be using an non-threaded end?

Apologies for 'squatting' your thread again. blush

Cheers

Chris

Phil Cooke03/01/2020 14:02:36
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2549 forum posts
1795 photos

I'm sorry I'm not sure of the SLEC part number for the 3mm torque rods I've got, I bought them at a show not online, but I'd definitely go with 3mm for actuators of this sort of length, 2mm will be a little 'springy' which will lead to 'slop' at the aileron.

You only need adjustment at one end of the pushrod which connects the servo arm to the torque rod... each to their own on hardware fittings - I tend to use a small, sharp 90deg bend and a servo keeper on the servo end, and a threaded clevis onto the torque rod horn at the other. In this case, with the sweep on the Sabre wing, I will be using a ball link connector instead of a normal clevis to ensure any lateral movement at the torque rod is taken out without adversely loading the servo.

Alan Gorham_03/01/2020 14:31:11
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1256 forum posts
145 photos

Just for clarity, the only torque rods that SLEC currently list ARE the SL-113R. As Phil described, they do have the short lengths of white plastic bearings and they are most definitely 3mm wire diameter. I have used these in the last 7 models I have built and I've just had the calipers on a set to confirm.

SLEC have obviously just made an error in the description on their website.

McG 696903/01/2020 18:09:54
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3172 forum posts
1199 photos

Thank you again, gents.

I will definitely follow your advice, Phil.

Using 3mm rods, but bending my own with styrene bearing tubes. Due to the swept wing, I already thought of using ball links for the servo connection.

@ Alan > thank you for getting your calipers to the rescue, but indeed the SL-113R are listed as being 14 swg. I guess if or when the pros are making those 'errors', it can get very confusing for apprentices like me... indecision

Cheers

Chris

Phil Cooke03/01/2020 23:16:10
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2549 forum posts
1795 photos

Finally a bit of proper construction!

Having chamfered the lower spar slots and T/E on each of the ribs (for the sweep) I dropped each wing rib into the skins with a quick lick of thin cyano. I started the job with the intention of building 2 separate panels to aid handling whilst shaping of L/E and T/E later, but when I came to fit R1 it felt like a good idea to join them perfectly flat as a pair and add them as one thick rib - which is what I did - meaning its now a one piece wing with dihedral. I might come to regret that later as it wont help sanding...

ribs build 1.jpg

Chris McG 6969 - here's the SLEC torque rods for reference... they are 14" long as supplied - not 15" as I previously stated - apols.

torque rods.jpg

Anyway all the ribs are in and the lower skins have taken the form of the wing jig nicely... next job is to chamfer the top slots for the upper spars before that and the webbing is added along with the sub L/E. All simple and enjoyable building!

ribs build 2.jpg

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