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Phil's F-86 Sabre build thread

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Dallas Crisp03/07/2020 00:14:03
13 forum posts

Hi Phil

Thank you for your reply. Attending a fly -in at the Orme is an event that I have always wanted to be involved in, but this coronavirus has a mind of its own. Have only used glass cloth once before and the resin I used had the consistency of honey , thus resulting in the model being too heavy, maybe my technique!! Fellow modelers told me that I should have thinned the resin with metho or denatured alcohol. I queried the suppliers on thinning their resin and they strongly warned me against this.

Phil how would you describe the consistency of your skinning resin? Is it thinner than normal resin used in boat building? Glassing models is not one of my strong points.

Have searched Australian Hobby Stores for Skinning Resin with no luck.

Again thank you for your time Dallas Crisp

Martin Gay03/07/2020 07:34:01
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398 forum posts
255 photos

Dallas,

I use West Systems 105 epoxy. It is not exactly cheap but has a low viscosity.

A quick google search revealed lots of stockists in Australia. This random pick is in Queensland:

http://atlcomposites.com.au/category/13/WEST-SYSTEM

Peter Garsden03/07/2020 08:30:30
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1734 forum posts
1302 photos

I use laminating resin which is the right consistency, or Finishing resin which is quite thin, and is made by Z Poxy - https://wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/276692/?gclid=CjwKCAjwrvv3BRAJEiwAhwOdM8dZUXmYBbuc7q2IK04IDLIz6CILnWvT-0q855-2VrYLCMB-DFYvkRoC4rgQAvD_BwE. The reason you should never dilute resin with metho or acetone is that it increases massively the setting time and usually means it never sets! I did it once - never again - that may have been epoxy glue however.

Best way to prevent the resin being too thick is to spread it with an old credit card as thin as you dare then dab the surface with Kitchen Towel. I use a Proxxon Shoe Sander to flatten out any lumps afterwards.

Alternatively you can use Water Based Varnish but you need about 6 coats to fill the weave - I use Ezecote - https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/193477084239?chn=ps. That is what I have used before and it is very easy to apply with a brush.

Edited By Peter Garsden on 03/07/2020 08:36:41

Andy Meade03/07/2020 08:50:10
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2776 forum posts
717 photos

All good advice men! The viscosity of the Gurit resin I use is around about single cream, if that helps.

If thick like honey, you could heat it slightly to make it runnier, the corollary of that though is less working time.

Phil Cooke03/07/2020 16:41:17
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

Yep, I use the fighter aces resin and 'single cream' is a good description on the viscosity. Straight out of the bottle mixed 1:2.5 and well stirred.

Dallas Crisp04/07/2020 23:40:55
13 forum posts

Hi Martin, Peter, Andy, Phil

Thank you for all your feedback, great advice. Will chase up the West System 105 and do some practice runs before I try to apply it to my F-86. Will let you know how I get on. Remember if you are ever in the Southern Hemisphere you have to come slope soaring with us, Norfolk Island is truly a most beautiful Island.

Thank you all for your time keep safe Dallas Crisp

dirk tinck13/07/2020 17:28:24
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644 forum posts
893 photos

I googled Norfolk Island this weekend Dallas,and i must say that it's a beautiful place to go on vacation !Another thing on my bucket list !

Phil Cooke27/07/2020 12:24:23
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

Well, I'm back underway after a 2 week break from Sabre building spanned either side of the first PSSA event of the season, my first time out flying since October last year - which did me no end of good both mentally and physically!

As the fuselage is still in final shaping and glassing around the complex bits, I've recommenced work on the surface finish prep for those parts already glassed and sanded. The wing, ailerons, tailplanes and rudder.

Having discussed the benefits at length, I was keen on this build to try out the 'Freddy B's secret sauce' method as championed on this forum by fellow Sabre builder McG 6969. The aim here is to eliminate the need for either the second resin flow coat or deep fill primer to fill the weave, instead relying on the filling and sanding properties of talc and varnish with the benefits of reduced weight and ease of sanding.

I followed the recipe to the letter and did some trials on scrap wood and then part of the glassed wingtip.

The mix is about equal measures (on volume) of lightweight filler, Diamond Hard Varnish and Talc, all mixed up with a splash of paint for contrast and sufficient water added to thin it to a consistency of thick gloss paint.

filler sauce 1.jpg

Heres my first trials piece, a length of light ply, not as pourous or grainy as balsa...slapped on thick here.

filler sauce 2.jpg

And this is a thinner coat on the glassed and initial sanded wingtip, shown wet.

filler sauce 3.jpg

Below it's dried overnight. It proved very easy to sand back with a fine foam block and its clearly done the job as intended - the resulting surface felt much smoother when sanded back to the glass. A second coat and resand I think will finish the job off lovely ready for final primer. I will weigh the wing before and after to see what the resultant weight gain is. I'll also change the paint colour in the next run as the grey/brown isnt contrasting enough with the glass on balsa so its hard to see how much is left in the weave when it's sanded back.

filler sauce 4.jpg

Edited By Phil Cooke on 27/07/2020 12:37:31

McG 696927/07/2020 18:40:15
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3307 forum posts
1257 photos

Fine to have you back to the building board, Phil.

... and glad you decided to give Fred's Sauce a go.

IIRC, the first one who tried it was Robert P. with his triple-engine Dornier seaplane and he ended up quite satisfied.

Reading your first comments, your experience is appearing quite positive as well.

I realize I'm a bit maniac - Iris would correct me with 'totally' - when insisting on contrasting layers, but glad you now realized it yourself. wink

By the way, did you receive my PM reply?

Looking forward to seeing your progression with the Sauce...

Cheers & keep safe

Chris

Phil Cooke28/07/2020 12:45:30
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

Hiya Chris, yes I read and understood your PM - many thanks for the guidance.

I've given all the finshed parts a second coat of sauce, mixed with some red acrylic paint this time to aid contrast for improved sanding back - much easier visually!

Tailplanes with a good second coat all dry and ready for sanding back - it sands very easily and quickly.

filler sauce 5.jpg

You can clearly see the residual material filling the weave - even on the second coat. It's left a lovely smooth surface now ready for top primer and paint.

filler sauce 6.jpg

Edited By Phil Cooke on 28/07/2020 12:46:49

Phil Cooke29/07/2020 21:13:30
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

All sauced, sanded smooth and ready for the final primer... right back on with the fus glassing crying 2

sauced and sanded.jpg

dirk tinck30/07/2020 01:00:37
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644 forum posts
893 photos

I really want to know the result when the primer and paint is on for a week or three .From my automotive background i suspect every one-component filler from the fact , that they keep on drying for ages and thus keep sucking up the paint !

The quality of products surely has improved over the years , so your result could be as good as any !!

Phil Cooke30/07/2020 20:01:19
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

Hi Dirk,

I'm hoping this works well too, my first trial with this method but it comes very highly recommended and proven. Its certainly sanded to a lovely smooth finish with very little weight gain, now ready for primer and paint. Perhaps I will give the primer a real good drying period before top coat, to mitigate your potential risks??

This weekend I am building the fuselage stand as you did to aid with glassing and painting!  

I do love all this joint method development, sharing of ideas and improvement generation!

Edited By Phil Cooke on 30/07/2020 20:03:35

Phil Cooke01/08/2020 20:24:17
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2620 forum posts
1836 photos

Final shaping and prep for glass - I thought I'd follow Dirk's lead once again and build myself the rotating fuselage jig he'd devised which will be a massive helping hand throughout both glass and paint!

The baton wood I had in stock, it did cost me a trip to B&Q for some wing nuts and threaded rod (which they no longer stock!) so I had to use 120mm M6 bolts to the same effect.

final sanding 1.jpg

You can adjust the fuselage position on the bolts, about 30mm sticks into the fuselage front and back through 6mm holes drilled into F1 and F10. A silicon washer behind the big metal washer stops it spinning with just enough grip.

final sanding 2.jpg

McG 696901/08/2020 20:38:56
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3307 forum posts
1257 photos

... superb as usual, even if you 'copycatted' Dirk's concept. yes

I guess I will have to do the same, even if I have some 6mm threaded rods available... devil

Cheers & be safe all

Chris

Dallas Crisp02/08/2020 05:51:06
13 forum posts

Hi Phil

Top idea, will also copy Dirk's painting and sanding jig.

Stay safe, Dallas

Peter Garsden03/08/2020 20:19:16
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1734 forum posts
1302 photos

You can also use that to hold the fuselage if you are going to make a lost foam version like I do occasionally.

Edited By Peter Garsden on 03/08/2020 20:19:51

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