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PatMc22/08/2019 16:27:53
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Posted by Erfolg on 22/08/2019 14:18:48:

I find it bizarre that it is an offense to use a mobile behind the wheel if stationary beside the road, even with the engine off.

Where have you seen that info ? I think it's incorrect.

G-JIMG22/08/2019 16:36:44
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Posted by Peter Christy on 22/08/2019 14:04:19:

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but my Garmin Satnav has been dumped in favour of the Google Maps app on my phone!

The 'phone SatNav has more up-to-date maps, its free, and it has far more up-to-date traffic information! The Garmin was supposed to navigate you around congestion, but it only told you about it once you were in it! The Android satnav is far better at this, and I now use it exclusively.

So is this use of a 'phone going to be banned? And what about those 'phones that connect to the car radio for true hands-free operation? How on earth is this going to be policed?

Nothing reduces the credibility of the law more than unenforceable regulation.

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Pete

It already has been banned! If the police catch you with a mobile phone in your hand, or see you looking down at one, it constitutes the same offence as if you were making a call. Telling them you were just using the mapping function does not change the offence, you are still 'using' a mobile.

Don't ask me how this is different to using an after market Sat Nav!!

stu knowles22/08/2019 16:50:41
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If the police catch you with a mobile phone in your hand, or see you looking down at one, it constitutes the same offence as if you were making a call.

Same offence? Not really, One is Driving while using a telecommunications device and one is driving while not in a position to have full control or even Drive without Due Care...….. Which would also apply if you were fiddling with a dedicated Sat Nav while Driving.

Erfolg22/08/2019 16:56:31
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Patmac

It was a report in a local paper of a woman fined for having pulled over to the side a road, switched of the engine and called back who ever had rung her. It certainly surprised me. Apparently you are still in charge of the vehicle whilst in the driving seat, engine on or not, so it appears.

I guess like most cars, my hands free and sat nav are built into the car. If I wanted to and actually knew how, I can tell the car? to call a previously inputted person. Both I see as far safer than my wife bending my ear about where I should have turned if she had spoken earlier. Surprisingly my navigator is frequently at odds with the Sat Nav. I just say, lets give her a bit longer, to see if she gets us there. To date she is 100% correct. My navigator would have taken a slightly different route, oh yes.

Erfolg22/08/2019 17:02:05
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Ah, the use of a mobile phone is an interesting one. Just a week or so back the police lost a case against someone who was using a mobile to film an accident, whilst I think driving, could have been stationary.

Personally I have no sympathy with the person if fined in such circumstances (under most circumstances).

Shaun Walsh22/08/2019 17:02:09
175 forum posts
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There was a recent case were someone was found not guilty of using a handheld mobile phone because they were neither texting nor making a phone call.

You can use a handheld mobile phone if you are parked with the engine off and handbrake on.

G-JIMG22/08/2019 17:11:53
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If the police catch you with a mobile phone in your hand, or see you looking down at one, it constitutes the same offence as if you were making a call.

Same offence? Not really.

Stu, You are applying common sense and logic. Unfortunately, neither has any place in English Law or Policing Policy.

Nigel R22/08/2019 17:24:15
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"How different is a hands free conservation to a typical conversation with a passenger?"

If you are talking to a passenger, the passenger is easily able (well, in theory) to see when you are "busy driving" and not wanting to reply or continue the conversation until a hazard is passed or junction negotiated or whatever.

On the other end of a phone, hands free or not, does not have this ability, and will just talk at you, providing a distraction from the more important task at hand.

John Bisset22/08/2019 17:35:07
154 forum posts

Years ago I had a policeman tick me off for eating an apple whilst stationary, engine off, in a motorway traffic jam. Yes, I was behind the wheel, but no-one was going anywhere, given the solid queue to the horizon.

Amused me and annoyed my kids, who thought it stupid.

PatMc22/08/2019 17:39:32
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4193 forum posts
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Posted by G-JIMG on 22/08/2019 16:36:44:
Posted by Peter Christy on 22/08/2019 14:04:19:

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but my Garmin Satnav has been dumped in favour of the Google Maps app on my phone!

The 'phone SatNav has more up-to-date maps, its free, and it has far more up-to-date traffic information! The Garmin was supposed to navigate you around congestion, but it only told you about it once you were in it! The Android satnav is far better at this, and I now use it exclusively.

So is this use of a 'phone going to be banned? And what about those 'phones that connect to the car radio for true hands-free operation? How on earth is this going to be policed?

Nothing reduces the credibility of the law more than unenforceable regulation.

--

Pete

It already has been banned! If the police catch you with a mobile phone in your hand, or see you looking down at one, it constitutes the same offence as if you were making a call. Telling them you were just using the mapping function does not change the offence, you are still 'using' a mobile.

Don't ask me how this is different to using an after market Sat Nav!!

They haven't been banned, but they must be in a fixed cradle etc same as an after market sat nav.

PatMc22/08/2019 17:48:24
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Posted by Erfolg on 22/08/2019 16:56:31:

Patmac

It was a report in a local paper of a woman fined for having pulled over to the side a road, switched of the engine and called back who ever had rung her. It certainly surprised me. Apparently you are still in charge of the vehicle whilst in the driving seat, engine on or not, so it appears.

She may not have been parked safely.

From Highway code -

car phone.jpg

Geoff Sleath22/08/2019 18:08:34
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Posted by Nigel R on 22/08/2019 17:24:15:

"How different is a hands free conservation to a typical conversation with a passenger?"

If you are talking to a passenger, the passenger is easily able (well, in theory) to see when you are "busy driving" and not wanting to reply or continue the conversation until a hazard is passed or junction negotiated or whatever.

On the other end of a phone, hands free or not, does not have this ability, and will just talk at you, providing a distraction from the more important task at hand.

Exactly! I'm regularly a 'vulnerable road user' either walking on narrow lanes with no footpath or cycling and anything that distracts a driver is dangerous.

Geoff

Erfolg22/08/2019 22:35:32
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No one wants to see any accidents occur that can or could have been avoided, by sensible measures, I expect.

I remain unconvinced that banning hands free or sat navs achieves that goal.

The suggestion that it is not possible for a convention to become the norm where a driver politely informs a caller that they are driving at present, is accepted and recognised as an indication that there could be a pause or the the conservation ended if the situation requires it. Just as a passenger in a vehicle will typically accept.

The extreme and most intrusive situation that is typical is the police operation, where conversations under extreme pressure with multiple distractions are ever present. Ban hands free, then logically the police force logically must be prevented in entering into any conservation or interaction whilst driving.

Many of the reports that emerge from pressure groups or in some cases academic circles do not bear scrutiny, the reasons can be many and varied. In the case of parliamentary working parties, due to the fine balance of the various parties, are more about making mischievous for the government than being constructive or balanced in their reporting.

From what has been written here, it seems what I thought was clear cut, is less so. That guilt and innocence could be dependent on your bank balance and resolve.

Doc Marten22/08/2019 23:04:54
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Posted by Erfolg on 22/08/2019 22:35:32:.

.........The extreme and most intrusive situation that is typical is the police operation, where conversations under extreme pressure with multiple distractions are ever present. Ban hands free, then logically the police force logically must be prevented in entering into any conservation or interaction whilst driving...……..

That's not a logical comparison as emergency service drivers are trained and assessed in running commentary driving at high speed, members of the public are not.

Edited By Doc Marten on 22/08/2019 23:09:20

Cuban822/08/2019 23:50:41
2641 forum posts
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I keep my phone in a slide in type wallet so you can't see the screen, the whole lot then either goes in the glove box or centre console safely out of the way. It'll auto answer and come through via blue tooth to the sat nav. If in the rare event that I need to call out, I'll stop and select the number via the sat nav screen. That is tricky, requires going through a couple of screens and then scrolling to the required number and selecting 'call'. Not what you want to be doing when driving, so I never do it.

Mentioned a while ago in another thread that I was looking to get back into motorcycling. Did the deed on Monday and a nearly new Triumph T100 Bonneville will be sitting in my garage within a week or so. Was looking forward to the luxury of comms between rider and pillion rather than all the shouting and hollering as it used to be. Apparently, even intercoms may well come under the ban, because clearly it's much safer to turn around and shout at your passenger whilst riding or have your pillion tapping you on the shoulder and drawing your attention to the next services sign.

Martin Harris22/08/2019 23:58:23
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Posted by Doc Marten on 22/08/2019 23:04:54:
Posted by Erfolg on 22/08/2019 22:35:32:.

.........The extreme and most intrusive situation that is typical is the police operation, where conversations under extreme pressure with multiple distractions are ever present. Ban hands free, then logically the police force logically must be prevented in entering into any conservation or interaction whilst driving...……..

That's not a logical comparison as emergency service drivers are trained and assessed in running commentary driving at high speed, members of the public are not.

Would it be any more logical that a retired or off duty police trained driver would be prosecuted for telling his wife that he was going to be home late? Or that a racing driver in a high performance car is not allowed to drive faster than a 17 year old driver of a barely roadworthy Corsa who had passed his test earlier that week?

Tom Sharp 223/08/2019 00:24:11
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I have a phone in the car, just for emergencies, I have no friends who want to call me so I never turn it on.

MattyB23/08/2019 00:33:43
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I suspect this will be one of the many pieces of proposed legislation that are quietly forgotten in the coming months when the government finds itself with rather more important things to do (preventing us from running out of critical medicines, trying to stop major foreign companies relocating elsewhere etc).

Erfolg23/08/2019 09:20:24
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It is not logical to compare favorably high speed driving under stress as OK, with citizens undergoing normal controlled activities.

The dangers of stress and speeds that are in excess of posted maximum speed, are inherently dangerous, especially when compounded by a requirement to communicate under said conditions. That is without consideration to what members of the public anticipate as they go about their every day activities.

In comparison hands free phones and passenger conversations are very safe.

John Bisset23/08/2019 10:32:46
154 forum posts

I'm not quite sure what you mean there Erfolg.

By its nature, all driving is dangerous, it simply remains to determine what is acceptable.

(If we were starting from scratch in today's relatively risk averse society, manually operating large fast moving lumps of metal, containing highly flammable fluids, in close proximity to pedestrians, as happens in any city street, would never be allowed!)

Most drivers are minimally trained - all our 'test' requires and at best minimally competent. The variation in capability seen daily on our roads is astonishing. A well trained driver, with good reactions and understanding of the task & its limitations, focused alert and operating a well maintained vehicle is, I'd suggest, less of risk than many a wandering half awake stumbly who doesn't know (or care) how wide his car is, who indicates after starting to turn, who runs too close up behind and who can't even reverse park the brute!

What does 'posted maximum speed' have to do with it? That is an arbitrary value, often set without regard to the realities of the road - and it may be a dangerously high speed itself in some conditions. Just because it is legal doesn't make it sensible.

The police driver is also regularly assessed and given practice in emergency handling, which adds to his/her safety in operation. This is something I wish was applied to us all. I'd happily sit a retest every few years , as I do for flying. My capability is checked and further training and testing provided if necessary.

Martin Harris made a good point too - I'd love to see differentiation between new inexperienced drivers and experienced, trained ones, to allow variation in what is permitted. Of course the counterpoint would be that the penalties for error or trangression would be correspondingly more severe. This might help remind folk that to be allowed to drive is a PRIVILEGE not a right ! These are lethal weapons, the only ones most of us have easy access to.

And cuban8 - I wasn't aware there was a proposal to ban motorcycle intercoms. Now that is utterly absurd !

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