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The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

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Chris Berry20/11/2019 22:17:47
228 forum posts
1 photos

I don't care what people call me, I've got a thick skin and I'm.not easily offended. I just find it amazing that someone would give up their hobby over a principle or £9 or a quiz. It's not something I can even comprehend doing in any way shape or form.

Bob Cotsford20/11/2019 22:40:02
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8058 forum posts
444 photos

we really need a 'like' button on here. Some excellent responses to being called sheeple, 'order followers' - sounds a bit 1945 trials to me but I'm not a moderator - for accepting that our objections were not sufficient to stop legislation but were enough to moderate (that word again!) it's application.

In the '70s I objected to being forced to wear a crash helmet. I was happy to wear one on my own initiative but being a rebellious teenager I wasn't happy accepting orders. It was the principle of the thing! Luckily I believe that I have now matured and accept that mine isn't always the only valid opinion, now I abide by the laws of the land in the hope that it will allow me to quietly carry on without uncalled for legal issues. If the law calls for me to kill or torture my Asian neighbours I may reconsider, but we haven't exactly reached that point yet.

If that makes me a sheeple, if it means I say 'I'm only following orders', if it means I'm surrendering (God alone knows exactly what I'm supposed to be surrendering, whatever) then I could care less because I can go and fly my planes just as I always have.

With the rise of the insults I think I really am out of here this time. It just isn't needed.

Paul C.20/11/2019 22:50:55
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600 forum posts
150 photos
Posted by Chris Berry on 20/11/2019 22:17:47:

I don't care what people call me, I've got a thick skin and I'm.not easily offended. I just find it amazing that someone would give up their hobby over a principle or £9 or a quiz. It's not something I can even comprehend doing in any way shape or form.

I'm with you Chris 👍 on my hols at the moment but when we get back will sort the bmfa membership and the £9 extra, as a pensioner I am not giving up my hobby for this in my view minor inconvenience. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect that but I will continue with the hobby I have loved for many years now.

Paul.

Paul C.20/11/2019 22:53:42
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600 forum posts
150 photos
Posted by Bob Cotsford on 20/11/2019 22:40:02:

we really need a 'like' button on here. Some excellent responses to being called sheeple, 'order followers' - sounds a bit 1945 trials to me but I'm not a moderator - for accepting that our objections were not sufficient to stop legislation but were enough to moderate (that word again!) it's application.

In the '70s I objected to being forced to wear a crash helmet. I was happy to wear one on my own initiative but being a rebellious teenager I wasn't happy accepting orders. It was the principle of the thing! Luckily I believe that I have now matured and accept that mine isn't always the only valid opinion, now I abide by the laws of the land in the hope that it will allow me to quietly carry on without uncalled for legal issues. If the law calls for me to kill or torture my Asian neighbours I may reconsider, but we haven't exactly reached that point yet.

If that makes me a sheeple, if it means I say 'I'm only following orders', if it means I'm surrendering (God alone knows exactly what I'm supposed to be surrendering, whatever) then I could care less because I can go and fly my planes just as I always have.

With the rise of the insults I think I really am out of here this time. It just isn't needed.

Well said bob 👍

Roger Price 120/11/2019 23:43:48
17 forum posts

With all the enjoyment and friends I have acquired over the years embroiled in this hobby I cannot for the life of me imagine giving this all up for the sake of a simple 10 minutes test and a paltry £9 fee. Life is too short to for cutting your nose off to spite your face! If it wasn't for the BMFA you would have far more strictures to moan about. I also cannot understand why you take the time to contribute to the best forum the committed modeller has when you have declared your intention to divorce yourself from the hobby.

Ron Gray21/11/2019 07:02:58
1549 forum posts
367 photos

Everyone are entitled to their own opinion and choices, be that abiding by the law, or breaking it. We may not agree, we may not like it but it is their choice. They are free to make their own decisions, we may not understand them, we may be bemused by them but that is their right. It is not for us to judge, we may comment but let’s keep it non personal.

Kevin 21621/11/2019 07:41:36
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214 forum posts

I hold an A certificate but decided out of curiosity to do both the CAA and BMFA competency tests. They are not difficult and take very little time to complete. Its so easy to remain compliant, but its an individual's choice.

I have not however registered as an Operator and will follow BMFA advice to use the exemption.

Nigel Heather21/11/2019 10:41:36
174 forum posts
7 photos
Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 20/11/2019 19:20:34:

What principle exactly? A law has been passed and I need to obey that law to pursue my hobby lawfully. And that makes me a sheeple with no principles?

 

 

Okay, before I say anything, let me state that I am going to do the test and pay my £9.

 

So trying to take a neutral view I can see both sides of the argument.

 

On the one hand the law is pretty trivial and it doesn’t take much in terms or money for most of us to comply with it. And for most of us, paying the fee and taking the test will be the end of it, we will carry on as if nothing has happened and plod will never visit our flying fields.

On the other hand it is a stupid law, one that is practically unenforcible and serves no real purpose.

 

And remember that laws can be wrong. I’m not going to name any because you will say that they are not comparable, which is true because this is such a trivial pathetic law. But it doesn’t take much effort to look back in history, at our country and other countries or even in the news today, to find laws which are wrong, enforced, but wrong.

 

But as to this silly pathetic law I can only see two real issues

 

1) that the CAA have produced a system that is unaffordable and at the end of the first year they come back and say, sorry we are going to have to raise the fee to £25 and then £50 and so on

2) I’m not an FPV pilot but I can see their hobby being deeply impacted. For most of us, we won’t even notice anything different, but an FPV pilot who abides with the law is going to lose a lot of what makes the hobby enjoyable for them.

 

Maybe one other minor concern.  Does this law require me to police it.  If I am at my club or out and about and I see someone flying in breach of the regulations, am I supposed to tackle them, am I supposed to report it to the Police or is it okay for me to mind my own business.

Cheers,

 

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:43:05

Edited By Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:47:49

Chris Berry21/11/2019 10:56:40
228 forum posts
1 photos

In terms of the fees rising. The CAA have secured funding to enable the cost to remain low. Originally they had to have it self funding but it seems the DFT have given in.

Alan Gorham_21/11/2019 11:03:31
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1069 forum posts
129 photos
Posted by Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:41:36:
Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 20/11/2019 19:20:34:

What principle exactly? A law has been passed and I need to obey that law to pursue my hobby lawfully. And that makes me a sheeple with no principles?

Okay, before I say anything, let me state that I am going to do the test and pay my £9.

So trying to take a neutral view I can see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand the law is pretty trivial and it doesn’t take much in terms or money for most of us to comply with it. And for most of us, paying the fee and taking the test will be the end of it, we will carry on as if nothing has happened and plod will never visit our flying fields.

On the other hand it is a stupid law, one that is practically unenforcible and serves no real purpose.

And remember that laws can be wrong. I’m not going to name any because you will say that they are not comparable, which is true because this is such a trivial pathetic law. But it doesn’t take much effort to look back in history, at our country and other countries or even in the news today, to find laws which are wrong, enforced, but wrong.

But as to this silly pathetic law I can only see two real issues

1) that the CAA have produced a system that is unaffordable and at the end of the first year they come back and say, sorry we are going to have to raise the fee to £25 and then £50 and so on

2) I’m not an FPV pilot but I can see their hobby being deeply impacted. For most of us, we won’t even notice anything different, but an FPV pilot who abides with the law is going to lose a lot of what makes the hobby enjoyable for them.

Maybe one other minor concern. Does this law require me to police it. If I am at my club or out and about and I see someone flying in breach of the regulations, am I supposed to tackle them, am I supposed to report it to the Police or is it okay for me to mind my own business.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:43:05

Edited By Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:47:49

None of what you wrote prevents simple compliance, so by not complying you either give up model flying or break the law when you fly.

Wingman21/11/2019 11:15:35
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1109 forum posts
405 photos

It's the fact that the goverment have made our hobby, as was, illegal and then charge us £9 and give us a hoop to jump through in order for us to be legal again that gets me.

Suppose the governemnt had said "use of mobile phones while driving will be illegal and everybody who drives must pay £9 and pass an awareness test to comply with the law" can you imagine the uproar there would have been? We are just being done down and stamped on by this government because we are inconsequential nobodies as far as they are concerned.

Is it any surprise that people are throwing their toys out of the pram?

I'll just have to pay up and play their game spitting feathers 'cos I've got no real choice.

fly boy321/11/2019 11:24:41
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3535 forum posts
18 photos

Just a thought. I am wondering if the test and the £9 is just the final reason to give up the hobby. Is it possible that the op has many more reasons, age, sickness, failing eye sight, transport problems etc, that they were on the brink of giving up this great hobby anyway by no fault of their own ? Cheers

Dickw21/11/2019 11:24:44
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495 forum posts
76 photos
Posted by Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:41:36:................

2) I’m not an FPV pilot but I can see their hobby being deeply impacted. For most of us, we won’t even notice anything different, but an FPV pilot who abides with the law is going to lose a lot of what makes the hobby enjoyable for them.................

I am not sure I understand that.. I don't see how anything has changed for FPV - it's just that everyone needs to be registered and competent (or have exemptions) after 30th Nov.

Distances from people and property and intruding into people's privacy with cameras is not changing. Flying out of sight is not changing. If people didn't know the law before but do now, then perhaps DRES is working as intended.

The registration bit may be pointless and unenforceable but the education bit seems to be working.

Or have I missed something?

Dick

Steve J21/11/2019 11:34:03
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1617 forum posts
49 photos
Posted by Chris Berry on 21/11/2019 10:56:40:

Originally they had to have it self funding but it seems the DFT have given in.

According to CAP 1804, the DMARES is still self funding.

Geoff Sleath21/11/2019 11:38:37
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3483 forum posts
319 photos
Posted by Bob Cotsford on 20/11/2019 22:40:02:

we really need a 'like' button on here. Some excellent responses to being called sheeple, 'order followers' - sounds a bit 1945 trials to me but I'm not a moderator - for accepting that our objections were not sufficient to stop legislation but were enough to moderate (that word again!) it's application.

In the '70s I objected to being forced to wear a crash helmet. I was happy to wear one on my own initiative but being a rebellious teenager I wasn't happy accepting orders. It was the principle of the thing! Luckily I believe that I have now matured and accept that mine isn't always the only valid opinion, now I abide by the laws of the land in the hope that it will allow me to quietly carry on without uncalled for legal issues. If the law calls for me to kill or torture my Asian neighbours I may reconsider, but we haven't exactly reached that point yet.

If that makes me a sheeple, if it means I say 'I'm only following orders', if it means I'm surrendering (God alone knows exactly what I'm supposed to be surrendering, whatever) then I could care less because I can go and fly my planes just as I always have.

With the rise of the insults I think I really am out of here this time. It just isn't needed.

Couldn't agree more, Bob.

This legislation probably won't work all that well in stopping what has always been stupid and inconsiderate use of (mostly) FPV quads etc but then, legislation making theft illegal doesn't stop people stealing either. It's not as though the UK/EU are the only countries in the world to introduce legislation in an attempt to control use of RC models. It's happening over most of might be called the western world. We just have to suck it up.

I have an 'A' cert and am a member of the BMFA so I'll pay my extra £9 by whatever means is advanced and carry on playing with my toys. None of the regulation will affect how or what I fly (with possible exception of the height limit when I fly an electric glider) and £9 is trivial compared with what spend anyway. I haven't (and won't) work out what my current build will cost but it will be around £400 in the air I supect and that's just one item.

Geoff

Dickw21/11/2019 12:04:26
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495 forum posts
76 photos
Posted by Geoff Sleath on 21/11/2019 11:38:37:....................

............None of the regulation will affect how or what I fly (with possible exception of the height limit when I fly an electric glider) ..............................

Geoff

If your glider weighs less than 7Kg and you are a BMFA member you have an exemption from the height limit

An exemption I have been using regularly since earlier this summer.

Dick

Martin Harris21/11/2019 12:19:31
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8944 forum posts
221 photos
Posted by Wingman on 21/11/2019 11:15:35:

It's the fact that the goverment have made our hobby, as was, illegal and then charge us £9 and give us a hoop to jump through in order for us to be legal again that gets me.

Suppose the governemnt had said "use of mobile phones while driving will be illegal and everybody who drives must pay £9 and pass an awareness test to comply with the law" can you imagine the uproar there would have been? We are just being done down and stamped on by this government because we are inconsequential nobodies as far as they are concerned.

Is it any surprise that people are throwing their toys out of the pram?

I'll just have to pay up and play their game spitting feathers 'cos I've got no real choice.

Wouldn't the analogy be that the £9 payment would allow you to use your mobile phone?

I don't want to pay a fee to enjoy my hobby but while I campaigned against it to the best of my ability, the legal and democratic process has resulted in its imposition and I see no justification for flouting what is now law, just because I consider it unnecessary and futile in its effectiveness against malicious intent - although as we probably all realise, there are other interests involved.

Geoff Sleath21/11/2019 12:20:31
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3483 forum posts
319 photos

Thanks for that Dick. My Phoenix 2K is the only model I have with altitude telemetry (and that's just for my amusement) and my eyesight means that I rarely go to 200 metres - visibility has to be very good - but I do like to climb that high sometimes and see how long I can stay up before spot landing. It does, of course, weigh a lot less than 7kg.

So, apart from the £9, I'll be unaffected.

Geoff

Nigel Heather21/11/2019 12:32:59
174 forum posts
7 photos
Posted by Dickw on 21/11/2019 11:24:44:
Posted by Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 10:41:36:................

2) I’m not an FPV pilot but I can see their hobby being deeply impacted. For most of us, we won’t even notice anything different, but an FPV pilot who abides with the law is going to lose a lot of what makes the hobby enjoyable for them.................

I am not sure I understand that.. I don't see how anything has changed for FPV - it's just that everyone needs to be registered and competent (or have exemptions) after 30th Nov.

Distances from people and property and intruding into people's privacy with cameras is not changing. Flying out of sight is not changing. If people didn't know the law before but do now, then perhaps DRES is working as intended.

The registration bit may be pointless and unenforceable but the education bit seems to be working.

Or have I missed something?

Dick

 

Every FPV pilot I have seen flying, including the ones at the club would be breaking the law if they continue to fly as they do.

 

Two issues immediately

1) Not flying out of sight - the ones I have seen flying are doing this all the time

2) Having a dedicated spotter to maintain line of sight at all times. Never seen one with a dedicated spotter. Also I have watched out of interest and I was not able to keep track of them even when they weren’t obstructed - too small, too fast, too erratic, too many in the air at the same time.

Unless I am mistaken, I don’t think the law required this before now, so big change in the way they fly.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 21/11/2019 12:34:53

Chris Berry21/11/2019 12:40:09
228 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Steve J on 21/11/2019 11:34:03:
Posted by Chris Berry on 21/11/2019 10:56:40:

Originally they had to have it self funding but it seems the DFT have given in.

According to CAP 1804, the DMARES is still self funding.

In the response to consultation document the CAA issued it stated that they have made some revisions to the funding model.

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