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The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

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john stones 102/12/2019 20:42:54
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Ours is simpler.

The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim.

Don Fry02/12/2019 21:03:57
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Posted by john stones 1 on 02/12/2019 20:42:54:

Ours is simpler.

The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim.

yes

john stones 102/12/2019 21:09:58
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Posted by Don Fry on 02/12/2019 21:03:57:
Posted by john stones 1 on 02/12/2019 20:42:54:

Ours is simpler.

The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim.

yes

Yep, poke that with a stick. wink

Philip Lewis 302/12/2019 21:18:58
53 forum posts

Quite dangerous ground legally for a club to be checking anything, get it wrong and they have accepted some responsibility, they thereby take on a responsibility that they probably don't want.

That comes from a legal case in sailboat racing where the entrance committee's used to check that the competitor had valid insurance, it was subsequently held that by accepting it was sufficient to race they had endorsed that the cover provided was adequate (which in this case it wasn't). Entrance committee's stopped checking insurance and even refusing to look at it and simply accepted a competitors declaration that they had it.

For an insurer to turn down a claim, especially a third party claim then as far as I can see it the insurer would have to prove that the reason for turning down the claim would have to be seen as a contributing factor.

So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim.

However in the polar opposite, if you had an exemption or had taken the pilot test and were flying within the rules but had simply not registered as an operator it is difficult to see where simply not paying your nine pounds could ever be a contributing factor in any accident case (as far as I can see).

This is just opinion "pro bono", and an opinion not to be relied on.

Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:19:41

Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:20:34

Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:21:17

Don Fry02/12/2019 21:33:28
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No,

"So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim."

They pay out to the injured party. They might then come after you for every penny you have.

Philip Lewis 302/12/2019 21:59:46
53 forum posts

Technically correct but they are coming after you for reimbursement BECAUSE they are saying the claim isn't valid.

John Lee03/12/2019 09:48:07
744 forum posts
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Posted by Don Fry on 02/12/2019 21:33:28:

No,

"So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim."

They pay out to the injured party. They might then come after you for every penny you have.

Genuine question, under what legislation? I understand that under the Insurance Act they can refuse the claim. The only situation I'm aware of where they pay out after an illegal act is under Section 151 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Cuban803/12/2019 10:14:55
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Aren't we waiting for a definitive answer re insurance cover and non-compliance with the regs from the BMFA? I seem to recall that discussions were on-going.

 

AGM last night...........no probs, no arguments, no panic, no resignations. Everyone paid up without batting an eye.

Easy.

Edited By Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 10:19:18

Don Fry03/12/2019 10:22:21
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John, I have to say, I don't know. My understanding of the Insurance act 2015, is it makes it more difficult to wriggle out of contracts, for instance banning phrases such as " in the utmost good faith", a favourite phrase in boat insurance documents.

John Lee03/12/2019 10:53:50
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Posted by Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 10:14:55:

Aren't we waiting for a definitive answer re insurance cover and non-compliance with the regs from the BMFA? I seem to recall that discussions were on-going.

The only time you will get a definitive answer is if & when any particular case goes to court.

My Club has taken the attitude that we are not prepared to take the risk of being hit by a potentially uninsured fellow flyer, so are monitoring.

I think Committees should carefully ask themselves how they are going to respond to the injured party/press/court should there be an incident where a claim is refused & they are asked 'Why did you let this happen?"

Michael Adams 303/12/2019 11:02:25
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What a load of rubbish is being written, do what the BMFA & CAA tell us to do & what is the problem, I have my

numbers, fixed to each plane, so away I go with no worries,

Merry Xmas, and all that, and successful landings, no holes in the ground.angrylaugh

Mike.

Cuban803/12/2019 11:35:18
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As far as my club and committee is concerned, to remain a member of the club one has to have BMFA and be CAA registered - easily confirmed on the portal, no exceptions including guest flyers. No tickets - no fly. Why would anyone wish to complicate matters? 95% of our members pay BMFA and CAA  through the club anyway so job done,   The few who belong to other clubs and pay their dues through them will have their status confirmed via the portal. A minute or two's work.

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 11:43:47

Gary Manuel03/12/2019 11:44:25
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Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 03/12/2019 11:02:25:

What a load of rubbish is being written, do what the BMFA & CAA tell us to do & what is the problem, I have my

numbers, fixed to each plane, so away I go with no worries,

Merry Xmas, and all that, and successful landings, no holes in the ground.angrylaugh

Mike.

Bit abrasive Michael, if you don't mind me saying.... and a bit rich.

If you had done what the BMFA told you to do, you wouldn't have your numbers yet wink

John Lee03/12/2019 11:58:18
744 forum posts
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Posted by Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 11:35:18:

As far as my club and committee is concerned, to remain a member of the club one has to have BMFA and be CAA registered - easily confirmed on the portal, no exceptions including guest flyers. No tickets - no fly. Why would anyone wish to complicate matters? 95% of our members pay BMFA and CAA through the club anyway so job done, The few who belong to other clubs and pay their dues through them will have their status confirmed via the portal. A minute or two's work.

yes Exactly the same for us.

john stones 103/12/2019 12:49:34
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We had a fella who'd not paid his club fees, but kept coming then flying, someone pulled him, no pay no fly, he paid.

Another fella, not paid his BMFA, same story.

Yet another fella, flying recklessly and in a dangerous manner, and endangering person and property, sumat in CAA bumf about that. wink Members wanted someone to have a word with him (they don't like policing stuff) so muggins got the job, no yellow vest or clipboard mind, he got told he could no longer fly large models that where not fit for purpose and beyond his abilities because he was endangering the clubs well being..policing ? Same fella drove his car over the field after heavy rain, got stuck RAC had to tow him off, members decided he should foot the bill for the repair (but they don't like policing) so muggins had to tell him. Same fella's no longer a member, one of the Wives gave him an earful and Policed him out the club, good riddance.

Policing ? It's a word that people have come up with because they have the hump over this, 99.9% will just get on and fly legally, need No policing. Storm in a teacup.

Gary Manuel03/12/2019 13:28:25
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John,

I suspect that you keep referring to "policing", because I gave you a hard time about it prior to and at our AGM. I made it a condition of me remaining as a committee member, that I would not be involved in policing the registration regulations. You have stated recently that you are confused by the policing comments, so let me try to explain.

The term "policing" in the context of registration as I see it hasn't started yet. It's the ongoing checking that every model carries a legitimate Operator ID and is only flown by a "competent Flier".

You / the club have decided that all club members must fly legally (which I accept as your prerogative), despite the BMFA advice which makes it an individual choice rather than mandatory. The starting point to this is checking that everyone is competent and registered as an operator (which I accept). What I don't accept is the ongoing responsibility of checking that all models are labelled up correctly as this would in my opinion, cause ill-feeling / arguments and take the enjoyment out of visiting the field. The whole point of registration is to end up with an Operator ID label on every model. Without this, the registration exercise is pointless. Someone MUST take responsibility for this. In my opinion (and the BMFA's), it should be the individual flier and not the club. It certainly is not the responsibility of the committee members.

The problem with the club getting involved in "policing" the registration process, is that the club could inadvertently be taking liability away from the individual.

john stones 103/12/2019 13:44:42
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Not the case at all Gary, the term policing came up long before you used it. I ain't arguing with one of our clubs best members over this rubbish.

I decided nothing, the law dictates we must fly legally, nothing I can do about it. The club is already involved, you/we already enforce CAA laws and have done for donkeys years. So if there's Liability, it was already there.

Edited By john stones 1 on 03/12/2019 13:46:09

Gary Manuel03/12/2019 14:08:39
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OK - just explaining what I meant by policing as you seemed unclear.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:52

john stones 103/12/2019 14:14:47
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Posted by Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:39:

OK - just explaining what I meant by policing as you seemed unclear.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:52

No the term is being used in lots of places, I'm clear on what it is, seen people grabbing TXs to prevent someone crashing, some might call that Policing, I see it as common sense.

Nigel Heather04/12/2019 08:39:58
242 forum posts
7 photos

Question

You are at your club, pretty empty, just you and another guy. The other guy is flying a quad using FPV so he doesn’t have line of sight. Even if he had a spotter, the quad is often flying behind structures that would block line of sight. He is a very competent flyer and doesn’t appear to be putting anyone else at risk given the location that we fly from.

Do you say anything?

Cheers,

Nigel

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