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The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

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Gavin Mack12/12/2019 13:39:51
85 forum posts
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Not sue if this has already been discussed but if your operator ID is on the outside, then anyone could take your operator ID and put it on their drone or plane, fly it and possibly crash it near an airport etc. You would have difficulty proving you weren't flying. Although more complicated each plane should have a unique number displayed on it, linked to an operator id which is kept private.

Don Fry12/12/2019 13:52:31
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Posted by Cuban8 on 12/12/2019 10:54:56:
Posted by Don Fry on 12/12/2019 10:46:57:

As the old phrase goes, the law is an ass, and this has all the makings of bad law, bodged and botched.

Steady on Don, like me, you'll be accused of being boring and anti BMFA with such a negative attitude. laugh

No, I have always liked the BFMA, always an organisation with a fine record of supporting all branches of toy plane flying, and leagues better tha their French equivalent. But working with terminal stupids like the current government, aided and abetted by the CAA, air traffic people, el al, must be hair pulling work.

Say what you like, the current minister only looks good because he is compared with Failing Grayling.

Now I think I will have one more word, then shut up. How much trust would you have in an organisation that tells you one thing over the table, then writes something else down in the contract. That is what the CAA have done.

Chris Berry12/12/2019 14:00:06
239 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by MattyB on 12/12/2019 13:20:58:
Posted by Don Fry on 12/12/2019 10:46:57:

Having had a read of the regulations, kindly helped by Steve J, I have to say I agree with him. The ANO of 2016, pilot in charge, has been replaced by remote pilot, a person defined in 94g of the amendment as, the person manually operating the controls. Plain and simple. Nothing about instructors, secondary controls, just in plain simple English, person manually operating the controls. Move a control, that is a remote pilot.

Argue that they didn't mean it, that's what it says, and there is a lot of case law where judges say, if that is what the lawmaker says, that's what they meant. They can change the law if that is not what they meant, judges just decide on what it says.

Exactly. It is pretty clear the buddy box use case was never considered when they revised the ANO, probably because the author did not know they were available and widely used. Those who are happy to take the CAAs assurances as gospel need to remember it is not the CAA that would be sitting in judgement on the other side of the courtroom in the event of an incident...

Edited By MattyB on 12/12/2019 13:22:42

As someone who writes policy for a living and is used to playing with legal speak I would happily sit in a courtroom and argue that case. Not that it would ever reach a courtroom of course.

Chris Berry12/12/2019 14:09:22
239 forum posts
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Posted by Gavin Mack on 12/12/2019 13:39:51:

Not sue if this has already been discussed but if your operator ID is on the outside, then anyone could take your operator ID and put it on their drone or plane, fly it and possibly crash it near an airport etc. You would have difficulty proving you weren't flying. Although more complicated each plane should have a unique number displayed on it, linked to an operator id which is kept private.

I think you're overreacting somewhat and suggesting something that makes your life harder, I don't get it???

 If someone wanted to crash a drone near an airport I don't think they would bother messing with numbers. You say anyone. Who do you mean? Your club mates or a member of your family, as presumably you don't leave your model in view of the public or sitting on your drive?

It is against the law to smoke in your place of work, be that a truck, bus, car, office, taxi or building site or if children are in a car. How many arrests and prosecutions have there been for those offences? I suspect very few if any. How many of you worrying about these new regulations have smoked in your place of work since 2007? How many of you have travelled in excess of the speed limit?

The Drone regulations are very similar to the smoking ban. The police wont enforce unless there are complaints.

 

Anyway, I said enough on this topic, I've got a life to lead and a hobby to enjoy.

Edited By Chris Berry on 12/12/2019 14:10:55

Edited By Chris Berry on 12/12/2019 14:11:57

ken anderson.12/12/2019 15:30:41
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8497 forum posts
773 photos

bearing in mind that we are getting promised that we will be getting 20K more police officers,i don't...even in my wildest dreams or imagination think that I will be requested by an officer of the law to show him my right to fly bits of paper etc for my model aircraft or whatever on our club site.

as for the on line test,dont you think that if they do nab someone for doing something they shouldn't,the authorities will use the fact that you have answered all the reqd questions ...so you cant claim to be ignorant of the fact of what you are doing.

as for the buddy box/trainer bit,(me personally)in the real world - would say..."have a quick go" and that's it...then put my halo back on...…. come on be honest in your thoughts when reading this...and once again 3 cheer's for the BMFA.....I'm no more than an ordinary member,same as you all...

 

ken anderson...ne..1...Halo dept.

Edited By ken anderson. on 12/12/2019 15:32:18

Engine Doctor12/12/2019 15:53:36
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2369 forum posts
29 photos
Posted by Gavin Mack on 12/12/2019 13:39:51:

Not sue if this has already been discussed but if your operator ID is on the outside, then anyone could take your operator ID and put it on their drone or plane, fly it and possibly crash it near an airport etc. You would have difficulty proving you weren't flying. Although more complicated each plane should have a unique number displayed on it, linked to an operator id which is kept private.

Be careful what you wish for ! The powers that be make a pigs ear out of the present set . Imagine what it would be like if we had to register each model ?

Anyway the number doesn't have to be visible it clearly states your number has to be IN or ON a model . Mine will all be IN the model

Don Fry12/12/2019 15:54:20
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4287 forum posts
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Ken,Glad there is someone else who would do a risk assessment, and carry on.

Martin Harris12/12/2019 16:26:58
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9028 forum posts
224 photos

Easy enough to prove it isn't one of my models if someone should find some reason to clone my operator's number - every model I build contains my DNA - usually coloured red for easy identification!

In all seriousness, the fact that "my" number was to appear on a misbehaving model - however unlikely unless someone had a serious grudge with me - wouldn't constitute any proof that I was either operating it or had authorised its use. I won't lose many nights sleep over the possibility of a visit from Special Branch...

Tim Flyer12/12/2019 19:50:32
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1147 forum posts
220 photos

I would also like to say a big Thank You to all the BMFA team and their helpers ( some of whom are on this thread) for all their hard work with the change in regulations . They have made what could be a dreadful situation quite manageable and their hard work to protect our hobby is very much appreciated 👍

Nigel Heather20/12/2019 11:06:22
193 forum posts
7 photos

I have done the test and registered.

But two observations

  1. walking around Christmas shopping I still see lots of drones being sold in the likes of Currys, MenKind, Tesco etc. and not one of them is giving any advice, leaflets or signage about the requirements of the registration scheme. Outside places like this, where we we already fully aware, I don’t think it has been well publicised. There have been occasional short articles in the papers and news programmes but even if they were seen I don’t think they described the requirements very well. I’m not sure how the general public buying drones are supposed to know what they must do.
  2. I don’t fly what the public think of as drones, but I do keep an eye on the technology and frequent several technology forums where they are discussed and I read that there is an increasing movement towards drones that avoid legislation by weighing in at 249g

Cheers,

Nigel

Peter Miller20/12/2019 11:14:24
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10407 forum posts
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Posted by Gavin Mack on 12/12/2019 13:39:51:

Not sue if this has already been discussed but if your operator ID is on the outside, then anyone could take your operator ID and put it on their drone or plane, fly it and possibly crash it near an airport etc. You would have difficulty proving you weren't flying. Although more complicated each plane should have a unique number displayed on it, linked to an operator id which is kept private.

Maybe the authorities will realise this problem and insist that all our models also feature a photo of the owner.

I just thought I might add to the paranoia and insanity of some of the things on this thread

Solly20/12/2019 11:23:49
242 forum posts
1 photos

Or a photocopy of our passports!

Alan Gorham_20/12/2019 11:34:41
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1120 forum posts
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Posted by Gavin Mack on 12/12/2019 13:39:51:

Not sue if this has already been discussed but if your operator ID is on the outside, then anyone could take your operator ID and put it on their drone or plane, fly it and possibly crash it near an airport etc. You would have difficulty proving you weren't flying. Although more complicated each plane should have a unique number displayed on it, linked to an operator id which is kept private.

Imagine if all the cars, lorries and buses on the road had a registration number clearly displayed for people to clone. Probably a stupid idea that would never catch on.

I bet it would be quite easy to prove that you weren't actually flying a drone should your number happen to be cloned. A simple alibi would normally be enough I would think.

Also, are our models in front of the public enough for someone criminal to even see the number to be able to clone it? No is my answer to that.

In any case, this is a done deal so if you don't display an operator ID on or in your model then you are flying unlawfully, which seems a much worse alternative to me than any of the scenarios you outlined.

Edited By Alan Gorham_ on 20/12/2019 12:03:47

Nigel R20/12/2019 12:14:29
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3301 forum posts
508 photos

what if we don't have a passport?

(mine's simply due for renewal, before you ask)

"there is an increasing movement towards drones that avoid legislation by weighing in at 249g"

And they have FPV capability.

GONZO20/12/2019 12:26:30
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1334 forum posts
14 photos
Posted by Nigel R on 20/12/2019 12:14:29:

what if we don't have a passport?

(mine's simply due for renewal, before you ask)

"there is an increasing movement towards drones that avoid legislation by weighing in at 249g"

And they have FPV capability.

If they have any information gathering device 'fitted'(doesn't have to be used) like a camera/microphone then you will have to register and pay the model tax.

Martin_K20/12/2019 13:38:46
120 forum posts
Posted by Nigel Heather on 20/12/2019 11:06:22:
  1. walking around Christmas shopping I still see lots of drones being sold in the likes of Currys, MenKind, Tesco etc. and not one of them is giving any advice, leaflets or signage about the requirements of the registration scheme.
  2. ..... and I read that there is an increasing movement towards drones that avoid legislation by weighing in at 249g

Are model shops publishing regulations in-store or on-line? I haven't seen any so doing.

Are only quadcopter makers building sub 250 gram models? I stopped the build of a larger model and switched to a sub 250 gram fixed wing project.

I am not avoiding legislation, I am complying with it as I see fit, i.e. until the exact implementation of the EASA rules are known I will hedge my bets.

Brian Cooper20/12/2019 13:55:32
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467 forum posts
20 photos

I was in Lidl yesterday and they had two different models of large drones for sale. . Both clearly aimed at the Christmas market, and both were obviously over 250 grams. ...and not a single reference to any CAA legislation.

I pointed this out to the management in the shop, and just got a blank stare in return. . I might as well have been speaking a foreign language. thinking

There's going to be a lot of people, young and not so young, who will be breaking the law on Christmas morning.

GONZO20/12/2019 14:04:10
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1334 forum posts
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Posted by Martin_K on 20/12/2019 13:38:46:

I am not avoiding legislation, I am complying with it as I see fit, i.e. until the exact implementation of the EASA rules are known I will hedge my bets.

yes Exactly, plus I thought I'd give CL a try as I've never done it. 1st July and the 'flavour' of discussions .should give an idea of the way things may be going

Don Fry20/12/2019 14:18:48
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4287 forum posts
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Posted by GONZO on 20/12/2019 12:26:30:
Posted by Nigel R on 20/12/2019 12:14:29:

what if we don't have a passport?

(mine's simply due for renewal, before you ask)

 

"there is an increasing movement towards drones that avoid legislation by weighing in at 249g"

And they have FPV capability.

If they have any information gathering device 'fitted'(doesn't have to be used) like a camera/microphone then you will have to register and pay the model tax.

Do they. Has something changed, I thought the operator tax applied to weight only.

And on a practical level Gonzo, when learning to fly control line, or reaqainting with it past childhood, don't do it on a full stomach. Ask me how I know.

How I hate spellcheckers

Edited By Don Fry on 20/12/2019 14:21:45

Edited By Don Fry on 20/12/2019 14:22:15

Edited By Don Fry on 20/12/2019 14:22:43

Edited By Don Fry on 20/12/2019 14:23:36

Peter Miller20/12/2019 14:26:33
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10407 forum posts
1232 photos
10 articles

You know, there must be something wrong with the members in our club.

The ones with A and B certs will just hand in their £9 and allthe others have passed the tests with no trouble.

Not a moan, No bellyaching, not an argument, Not a single "I am going to give up modelling!" They all just got on with it. From all the above, all 58 pages of it, obviously none of us are normal.

Thank God for that!!!

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