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The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

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Simon Chaddock19/02/2020 16:04:55
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5608 forum posts
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But a good pilot of a full size light plane, particularly when close to the ground (2000'?), is taught to keep a constant look out (scan 180 degrees) not only to have spacial awareness of where he is but also to be aware of other planes around him. By the time you can see another plane that is ahead there is a good chance it is already too late.

Steve J19/02/2020 16:23:21
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BMFA update

Martin Harris19/02/2020 16:56:55
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Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/02/2020 15:40:57:
 

He is most likely flying FPV. I know that the regs don't like FPV and seems to think that a spotter with line of sight is more effective but I'm not convinced. I don't fly FPV but I have watched guys at the club field flying fast small quads and I struggled to track them. But I have also worn a pair of slaved goggles while they are flying and it was totally different - I knew exactly where the quad was at all times - much more so than when I was trying to follow it line of sight.

OK - looks like my post has backfired a little and we don't all have full understanding of the regulations - although as a non-FPV pilot, I'm sure Nigel's lack of knowledge of the FPV laws isn't indicative of any shortfall in his general understanding of normal model flying regulations.

Nigel, the law requires FPV pilots to have a competent observer monitoring the flight path visually at all times and to be in direct communication with the pilot. FPV models over 3.5 kg must be flown on a buddy lead with the competent observer able to take over if he feels that the model is becoming difficult to monitor safely.

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/02/2020 16:58:05

MattyB19/02/2020 17:04:54
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2011 forum posts
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Posted by Steve J on 19/02/2020 16:23:21:

BMFA update

Full text...

"If you are one of the 18,500 members who registered with the CAA as an Operator via the BMFA prior to the 10th February, then you should be receiving your operator number by the end of this week. The automated email sent to the first 2000 BMFA members uploaded by the CAA earlier this week included reference to the requirement for a Flyer I.D. (which members are exempted from in accordance with CAA General Exemption E 4972). This has now been amended to reduce confusion.

The purpose of the original Exemption from Operator requirements (E 4973) was to make it possible for members to register with the CAA as Operators via their Association membership process up to a cut-off point (originally stated as 31st January, but in practice the 10th February) when we uploaded our data to the CAA.
The facility for members to register with the CAA as an Operator via the BMFA membership system remains available for all new/renewing members, as the CAA have now published a further exemption: (see **LINK**) to permit this.

It was always intended that a new Exemption would be issued to allow members to continue registering as Operators via their Association membership process ready for the next upload of data (which was proposed to have a cut-off date of 18th April, but is now 30th May) with the anticipation that there would be a further exemption to take us to the 1st July when the new EU regulations will be implemented. There will be no further exemptions from any DMARES requirements beyond that point.

However, in an effort to simplify the process, the CAA has decided to issue an exemption intended to cover members registering as Operators via their Association after the 1st February until the next scheduled upload (30th May) and beyond that to the point at which the new EU regulations become effective on the 1st July.
Given the way in which so many members have cooperated with the CAA’s DMARES, the CAA have decided that it would be pragmatic (and much simpler) to word the new exemption to apply to all Association members rather than have a complicated and confusing set of applicability criteria determined by membership joining and/or bulk upload dates.

The CAA advises anyone who has already registered as an operator to follow the intent of our original agreement and label their aircraft in accordance with the ANO once they have received their Operator ID (despite this not being reflected in the wording of the latest exemption!).

Once we receive the uploaded data back from the CAA, our plan is to update members records in GoMembership to include their CAA Operator number which will also be incorporated onto the electronic membership document.
We are now working with the CAA in anticipation of agreeing an Authorisation (in accordance with Article 16 of the EU regulations) which will incorporate the key points of our existing permissions/exemptions into a single document, to become effective from the 1st July. We will keep members updated on progress with this, but we are optimistic that very little will change."

Not sure I really believe the rationale given - if the CAA always intended to issue further exemptions to national association members, why push them to register so early at the tail end of 2019? It does rather feel like they were grasping for cash, though in government terms the numbers we are talking about (£166k from the national association members) are tiny.

Steve J19/02/2020 17:11:34
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Posted by Martin Harris on 19/02/2020 15:00:16:

That's precisely the point - there were several hedges between the drone and the presumed operator's position. At 3 feet AGL I don't think anyone except Steve Austin with his bionic eye would have been able to monitor the flight sufficiently to avoid a collision with someone or something on the ground - what if the video feed had failed while the drone was flying towards the road - and ground conditions were certainly not favourable for GHz frequency performance.

You don't know where the pilot (and observer?) were and you don't know how close the UA was to the road. There was nothing to collide with. If the video feed had failed the pilot would have stopped and either gained a bit of altitude or hit the return to home switch.

I wonder if the NFU are working with the CAA on standard scenarios for farming?

Nigel Heather19/02/2020 17:22:01
239 forum posts
7 photos
Posted by Martin Harris on 19/02/2020 16:56:55:
Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/02/2020 15:40:57:
 

He is most likely flying FPV. I know that the regs don't like FPV and seems to think that a spotter with line of sight is more effective but I'm not convinced. I don't fly FPV but I have watched guys at the club field flying fast small quads and I struggled to track them. But I have also worn a pair of slaved goggles while they are flying and it was totally different - I knew exactly where the quad was at all times - much more so than when I was trying to follow it line of sight.

OK - looks like my post has backfired a little and we don't all have full understanding of the regulations - although as a non-FPV pilot, I'm sure Nigel's lack of knowledge of the FPV laws isn't indicative of any shortfall in his general understanding of normal model flying regulations.

Nigel, the law requires FPV pilots to have a competent observer monitoring the flight path visually at all times and to be in direct communication with the pilot. FPV models over 3.5 kg must be flown on a buddy lead with the competent observer able to take over if he feels that the model is becoming difficult to monitor safely.

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/02/2020 16:58:05

Wow not only was that pretty snide but pretty wrong. I think if you have bothered to read my response properly it would have been clear that I am aware that a line of sight spotter is needed at all times.

What I was saying is if you have ever tried to follow a 250mm freestyle quad flying at 80mph, close to the ground and  turning very fast when there are two other freestyle quads in the air at the same time doing the same thing you will know how bloody difficult it is.  I’d go as far to say that in that situation, my effectiveness as a line of sight spotter at all time was pretty low.

 

And no way was I saying that he was flying legally, just that in the situation there was nothing particularly dangerous.

Just like I warrant that some people on this forum exceed the speed limit (which is illegal) but feel that they are doung it safely (and probably are).

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 19/02/2020 17:26:55

Edited By Nigel Heather on 19/02/2020 17:39:33

Martin Harris19/02/2020 17:24:10
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9154 forum posts
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...which is why I stated " there were several hedges between the drone and the presumed operator's position".

While the scenario was probably reasonably safe - and I stated that this was my original impression, it seems to me to have been extremely likely to have been conducted in contravention of the new regulations and symptomatic of the ineffectiveness of the communication of them to the general public. I don't recall seeing any exemptions issued that allow operators to modify the rules as they see fit if they consider that their operation is safe!

Martin Harris19/02/2020 17:30:16
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9154 forum posts
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Posted by Nigel Heather on 19/02/2020 17:22:01:

Wow not only was that pretty snide but pretty wrong. I think if you have bothered to read my response properly it would have been clear that I am aware that a line of sight spotter is needed at all times.

Nigel

Apologies that I misinterpreted your original post but I did try not to be too judgemental and certainly wasn't trying to be snide. Having re-read it I do now see that it doesn't state that you were unaware of the requirement.

fly-navy19/02/2020 17:39:45
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413 forum posts
11 photos

Received my operator I D couple of days ago. Can anyone tell me please where I could get them printed on some vynal self adhesive sheet, please don't think I'm angling g for someone on here to offer, just need heads up best place to get them printed.

Cheers. John

Tony Packe19/02/2020 18:09:05
14 forum posts

As the letters only have to be 3 mm high, get yourself a "P" Touch printer and then you can charge your club mates for making labels up for them.

Peter Miller19/02/2020 18:18:09
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10717 forum posts
1254 photos
10 articles

If you have an ink jet printer you can buy inkjet self adhesive vinyl on Enbay,

I bought mine a few weeks ago, Only about a fiver for enough to do hundreds of labels

You can get white of even clear so you don't mess your colour schem too much

Edited By Peter Miller on 19/02/2020 18:19:38

john davidson 119/02/2020 19:07:34
51 forum posts

regarding the comment on police interest, one of our members some time ago tried out a small quad in the park adjacent to Perth Prison. Police were on the scene in minutes complete with blues n twos.He was most indignant at being interrupted flying. Mind you a pair of neds were in court around the same time and were convicted of trying to fly drugs over the wall. They had unwittingly videoed themselves on the quad camera which was produced as evidence.You couldn't make it up!

Trevor Crook19/02/2020 22:38:33
919 forum posts
67 photos

Printed myself a load of Operator Number labels yesterday using my inkjet printer on self-adhesive paper label sheets. Used 5mm high Arial font, which is nice and clear. I gave the ink a couple of hours to dry then sprayed over a thin coat of Plastikote clear sealant. They are now cut out and applied inside the battery bays of all my models (I only fly EP). Job done!

Martin_K21/02/2020 09:16:20
133 forum posts

For those of us waiting for ASTM F3411 (standards document for implementing remote ID and tracking) it has been published - price 85 dollars!

Hopefully a modelling organisation will buy one and tell us what it proposes.

Cuban821/02/2020 11:03:19
2860 forum posts
1 photos

Last sentence in section 1.1

Remote ID is an enabler of enhanced operations such as beyond visual line of sight (BVLOS) operations as well as operations over people.

Excuse me, but what the devil has this got to do with recreational model aircraft flown at a club or other proper place, within line of sight and conforming to the current legal requirements that we have had in place for many years i.e. the ANO?

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 21/02/2020 11:06:00

Martin_K21/02/2020 11:37:14
133 forum posts
Posted by Cuban8 on 21/02/2020 11:03:19:

Excuse me, but what the devil has this got to do with recreational model aircraft flown at a club or other proper place ....

For businesses to operate commercial BVLOS they need a mechanism to know what else is in the air. (There may be better ways of doing it than broadcasting ID from model aircraft but government discussions suggest that is what is coming).

Nigel R21/02/2020 12:11:31
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3464 forum posts
524 photos

"please don't think I'm angling g for someone on here to offer, just need heads up best place to get them printed"

Various ebay sellers offer a customised sticker type service. I paid £2.30 for ten.

Search for "stick on waterproof school kids identity printed name labels stickers"

I figured it was cheaper than buying a printer.

Nigel R21/02/2020 12:27:01
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3464 forum posts
524 photos

That BBC footage...

here

is the spot the drone is at, at 50 seconds in. It is around 500m away from the start point. I can't see squat at 500m, let alone orient a drone behind two hedges.

 

On a side note, I recognise the area; unless I'm mistaken those fields flood most years. They flooded last year. They are all very low lying. Every few years the A40 might close at that spot. This year the Wye went very high though.

Edited By Nigel R on 21/02/2020 12:27:45

john davidson 121/02/2020 14:47:09
51 forum posts

Just this morning picked up the Lidl Weekly flyer, lists next week a Brother dymo type printer RRP £59.99 for £19.99 includes black on white tape and batteries , looks ieal for OP reg numbers

Tim Kearsley21/02/2020 15:25:29
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639 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Nigel R on 21/02/2020 12:27:01:

That BBC footage...

here

is the spot the drone is at, at 50 seconds in. It is around 500m away from the start point. I can't see squat at 500m, let alone orient a drone behind two hedges.

On a side note, I recognise the area; unless I'm mistaken those fields flood most years. They flooded last year. They are all very low lying. Every few years the A40 might close at that spot. This year the Wye went very high though.

Edited By Nigel R on 21/02/2020 12:27:45

Nigel, I'm intrigued - how do you know where the drone is at 50s in, and where it started from? Apologies if I've missed something very simple!

Tim.

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