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2 or 3 questions please, need some wise advice

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911hillclimber16/02/2020 10:36:31
175 forum posts
50 photos

Looking forward to a return to model flying after a 50 year lay-off...

I left aeromodelling flying control line, hence these silly questions.

I'm building a Ben Buckle Standard Buccaneer wich is going really well, great to be with balsa again. While many scarf joints dry, a few questions come to mind:

1

Covering. I have only tissued and doped, but I think this plane (electric) would be best done in something modern and easy for me to get a good result, preferably self coloured and robust enough for a few hard-landings.

Advice please.

2

Tailplane fixing

The plan shows the classic rubber bands to attach the rear tail/rudder assembly, but in the internet here is a fabulous buccaneer with the tail built onto the fuselage.

Advice on this change to the plan please.

3

Prop size

Motor is an Overland ThumperT4249/10 and the motor sticker states a prop from 13" which seems huge to me but also no pitch stated.

Advice please. I want this plane to be a lazy slow cruiser.

That's it for now, no doubt a few more to come.

Thanks in advance, Graham.

kc16/02/2020 12:19:12
6427 forum posts
173 photos

The film covering from HobbyKing is very good and therefore popular ( that is some colours are often out of stock) and cheap. Recommended, but not very vintage though. A proper covering iron is good but you could manage with a domestic iron - test with a sample as per the old Solarfilm instructions. Make sure no residue is left on domestic iron to ruin your shirts! Try to find the online Solarfilm video by Derek Hardman himself ( genius Solarfilm etc inventor) - probably on YouTube.

Tailplane, if it's RC then fixed is better so the elevator trim is not affected.  However its a big tailplane and it depends on the size of your car.  Maybe bolted on is possible.

I don't know enough about that motor to be certain - but my guess is it may be too powerful. Get more advice. For a basic idea vintage models seem to be fine on 50 watts per pound weight.

Edited By kc on 16/02/2020 12:24:12

Peter Miller16/02/2020 12:32:11
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10961 forum posts
1272 photos
10 articles

Hobbyking covering is good...if you canfin some.

Solarfilm is excellent and they still have stocks of many types and colours.

**LINK**

Glue your tailplane on. This makes sure that it doesn't move..I do this with all my vintage types.After all,you have elevators for any trim correction needed.

While I am far from expert on electric power my much bigger Super Scorpion flies on a far small motor turning a 12"prop

**LINK**

This is the spec of my Super Scorpion at 4-Max.It flies like a dream

911hillclimber16/02/2020 12:57:35
175 forum posts
50 photos

Thank you all, great info.

I have an unfinished Super Scorpion which this motor was bought for, but as this is the one being readied for 2020 learning, thought I would use it.

Bought the kit from Servo and they thought the motor ok.

I don't have to use full throttle!

Is doped nylon not on the covering list? (weight, too tricky etc?)

I have an unflown vintage Stol that was covered by the builder back in the 80's and the yellow colour and weight seems great.

kc16/02/2020 13:30:44
6427 forum posts
173 photos

I cannot find an Overlander 4249/10 listed but there is a 4240/10 which is 500 watt or so. much too powerful for a 4 or 5 pound vintage model I reckon.

Peter's Super Scorpion setup would surely work for the Buccaneer 66 inch too. ( is the Super Scorpion much bigger ?) Of course the trick is to use the weight of the Lipo to achieve CG without lead, so getting the Lipo well forward is probably the thing.

Peter Miller16/02/2020 13:55:29
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10961 forum posts
1272 photos
10 articles

I have a 2200 Mah battery right under the motor with the rearend flush with the front of the nose.

I would say that the Super Scorpion may look bigger but is probably lighter.

Doped nylon is a possiblity but horribly expensive...have you seen the price of dope? It also asks for warps etc.

I have been modelling for an awful long time (1953!!)and the greatest blessing that we have ever had is iron on films. 

Edited By Peter Miller on 16/02/2020 13:57:29

Simon Chaddock16/02/2020 14:08:25
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5692 forum posts
3026 photos

911hillclimber

"I don't have to use full throttle".

Yes that is true but retaining a big prop can give torque issues even if you don't use full throttle. At say 300 W a 13" prop will require more torque than a 12".

Torque is not usually an issue when flying normally but it can be in those tricky low slow situations near to the ground when there is a temptation to apply 'plenty' of power to get out of trouble.

Best to use an appropriate size motor and prop that is fit for purpose.

911hillclimber16/02/2020 15:56:31
175 forum posts
50 photos

Ok:

then which motor/prop would be good for this plane? The plan says a weight of 5Lbs maximum.

Now is the time to change things.

What iron-on covering would give a vintage look? Not sure I want the 'see-through' bright colours.

There is a blue/cream Buccaneer on google that looks so right, looks like tissue of old.

Steve Nash 116/02/2020 18:27:33
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51 forum posts
11 photos

The best covering for a lovely big vintage model like that is Solartex iron on fabric if you can find some. Its hard to find now but very good. I stockpiled a hoard of it after they ceased production. It does come up on ebay now and then or at swap meets.

paul d16/02/2020 19:21:04
164 forum posts
11 photos

Hillclimber sir, give George at 4max a ring ( sorry can't do links) but he will give you good advice, you really don't need a lot of power with vintage types.

As to covering, don't use film, totally out of keeping in my mind, my local model shop (addlestone models) has a roll of vintage cream tex in stock, saw it my self only this morning, that would look lovely with maybe some blue trim ( humbrol enamel?).

911hillclimber16/02/2020 22:21:06
175 forum posts
50 photos

Thank you Paul, I will follow those connections up tomorrow.

From the web, it seems many say 70W for every pound weight of a vintage plane, so say 350 w is required, maybe 400 if a tad heavy.

Will check this generalisation out tomorrow.

Old Geezer17/02/2020 05:40:31
670 forum posts

Agree with all the advice above - re the motor you mentioned - I had a similar motor on the front of an early Ripmax artf Wot4 which would pull it into the air in about 10 feet, so your open frame vintage plane would be vastly overpowered. Your 70 watts per pound will fly a vintage 3 function very comfortably and in character - and as recommended by Paul d - give George a ring, he'll put you right,

David Davis17/02/2020 08:13:53
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3685 forum posts
688 photos
Posted by Steve Nash 1 on 16/02/2020 18:27:33:

The best covering for a lovely big vintage model like that is Solartex iron on fabric if you can find some. Its hard to find now but very good. I stockpiled a hoard of it after they ceased production. It does come up on ebay now and then or at swap meets.

I agree with Steve. Solartex will be much stronger than film and it's much easier to apply, just make sure that you don't over-shrink it and introduce warps. Solarfilm, the business which made Solartex, closed down last year but there are still a limited number of colours is still available her: **LINK**

Picture of my Junior 60 covered in Solartex Orange.

j60 in winter.jpg

Picture of my double-sized Tomboy finished in yellow nylon and Vintage Red Solartex and my much younger self!

double sized tomboy.jpg

My Senior Telemaster finished in Vintage Orange, Vintage Blue and Natural Solartex. The Vintage colour range is supposed to look like doped silk and is transluscent.

Senior Telemaster

Super Sixty finished in Vintage Red Solartex.

super 60 repaired 1.jpg

If you want to use nylon, a lot of people these days use mica film or Doculam under the nyon first. That stops the nylon absorbing too much much dope and adding excess weight. Others use tissue over mica film or doculam. this produces an authentic vintage finish which is virtually puncture proof. I haven't tried it myself but I plan to do so on a Sharkface.

Finally have you thought of joining a local club Hillclimber?

Edited By David Davis on 17/02/2020 08:29:08

911hillclimber17/02/2020 08:28:08
175 forum posts
50 photos

Thanks to everyone as ever, very helpful indeed.

Will be ordering the motor after a chat and the film from Addlestone this afternoon, the 'cream' colour was the colour I wanted for the plane.

Having never used these modern (to me) coverings, I need to choose the easiest one!

Ref a local club? Yes, I plan to join the local group in the spring who have their own facilities and hopefully a few with a sympathy for an absolute beginner who can guide my controls a touch....

The pre sanded wing is now on the fully sanded fuselage, tail surfaces to be built and glued to the rear yet, but the plane looks great, really nice size.

This is not my usual hobby, I race cars and do motorsport a lot, but this is so different and will be great mid-week.

Looking forward to light blue skies and a gentle sun in the middle of Shropshire soon!

David Davis17/02/2020 08:44:20
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3685 forum posts
688 photos
Posted by 911hillclimber on 17/02/2020 08:28:08:

Thanks to everyone as ever, very helpful indeed...

... This is not my usual hobby, I race cars and do motorsport a lot, but this is so different and will be great mid-week.Looking forward to light blue skies and a gentle sun in the middle of Shropshire soon!

Until I retired to central France in 2015 I was a member of the Shropshire Model Flying Club which flew off Forton Aerodrome near Montfrord Bridge, just off the Shrewsbury-Oswestry road. Nice bunch of lads. They even had three trainers which beginners could use on buddy boxes and both Mode 1 and Mode 2 radios and instructors.

I still think a tex finish is better than film for a vintage model and if you can't find an appropriate colour in the limited Solartex range, there is a similar product produced by the German company Oracover. It's called Oratex **LINK**

That said, film would be lighter and the model would fly more slowly.

911hillclimber17/02/2020 09:46:22
175 forum posts
50 photos

The Club I'm thinking about is by Alverley Country Park close to Bridgnorth.

Not sure exactly where it is as location is 'secret' until you join.

Cream solartex covering now ordered from Addlestone, 3 meters which should wrap the lot.

Awaiting a reply from 4Max.

Does engine power have a relationship with wingspan or simply weight/flying style?

Don Fry17/02/2020 09:53:44
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4557 forum posts
54 photos

Is the name as in, a 911 going up a hill, time trial.

Steve Nash 117/02/2020 10:02:36
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51 forum posts
11 photos

​​​​​​ the 'cream' colour was the colour I wanted for the plane.

Good choice of colour for a vintage model. The plane in my profile picture is covered in cream and blue solartex. The cream can be combined with a good variety of contrasting colours if required. My plane should be in the April RCM&E in the ‘All Write’ column, so you can see it there too.

Kim Taylor17/02/2020 11:37:18
307 forum posts
55 photos

With regards to your motor, I'd consider two aspects:

1. You may need weight up front to help balance the model, so getting a smaller one may not be the best thing.

2. The motor which you have may seem massively over specified, but remember, it will only turn at a fixed(ish) speed. The power being absorbed (and thrust created) is entirely a function of the prop you fit, so just find a prop that will give you your required 350w at whatever the speed is at which the motor will turn. This is calculated by multiplying the kV number of the motor by the voltage of the battery that you're using.

Sorry if I've duplicated anything mentioned above by others but it seems to me a bigish motor hung out at the front may be a good thing in this instance.

Kim

Edited By Kim Taylor on 17/02/2020 11:37:44

David Davis17/02/2020 12:23:13
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3685 forum posts
688 photos
Posted by 911hillclimber on 17/02/2020 09:46:22:..

... Does engine power have a relationship with wingspan or simply weight/flying style?

You need to have a motor, battery and propeller combination which is capable producing sufficient power to reach a speed in excess of minimum flying speed. If you want to take off from the ground you need a combination which will overcome the drag of the wheels on the ground. As a general rule of thumb, 50-75Watts per pound is adequate for a vintage model. As your model is about the same size as a Junior 60 or Super 60 but likely to be lighter, you could do worse than to take 4-Max's recommendations for these models in your Bucaneer. **LINK**

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