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Neuron ESC problem

FrSky ESC struggling with change of cell count

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Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 18:30:27
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I've been doing some power and prop tests today using an FrSky Neuron 80 ESC.

All has been going fine (except it looks like I could do with a 15.5" prop).

All tests were with a 6S Lipo.

I've just changed to do some tests using 5S and the ESC appears to be holding power really low. With 6S I was seeing 1600W. With 5S it reaches about 150W. So it's as if the ESC is assuming that I've connected a flat 6S and won't let me proceed.

Is this a feature? Or, more likely, am I missing something simple?

I'm doing this using combinations of 2S and 3S Lipos. Any of the packs, combined to make 6S, work fine. So all batteries are OK.

When using 5S, the lipo volts hold up fine, going by the telemetry, but at full throttle I'm seeing around 150W at around 7.4A

Bob Cotsford10/04/2020 19:03:23
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I can't see anything in the BlHeli32 .ini files that I saved for my Neuron 40s indicating that the esc has a reset input voltage or a default pack size that is saved. Can you try connecting it to BlHeli32 to see if it resets? How quickly were you trying different packs? Could it be that the last pack settings take time to decay in it's memory in the same way you need to switch off many electronic devices for 30 seconds or so after an error? Unlikely but I can't imagine what else t could be.

Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 19:09:33
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Thanks Bob I was hoping you'd see this.

Yes I'm pretty sure it was off for plenty long enough but I'll go out and have another quick try now it's been de-powered for over 30 mins.

My next thing will be to find the BlHeli32 dongle I made a good while ago and work out how to use it again. (Age related skill fade is all too real).

One thing I'll be looking for is any sort of settings (factory) reset. I'll report back. Most likely tomorrow, now.

Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 19:14:44
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Update - Issue still present after a long time disconnected.

Bob Cotsford10/04/2020 19:18:26
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I'll see if I can excavate to my Ultra Stick tomorrow to see what happens if I run it on 4S instead of the usual 6S. Is yours an original 80 or the smaller 80S?

edit or I can try the Deuces Wild wing which is handier, it has been run on 4S, I could try it on 3S.

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 10/04/2020 19:19:43

Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 19:22:20
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It's a full sized 80.

Which out of the box would only run the motor very slowly on 3S.

That would be really useful, thanks Bob.

Bob Cotsford10/04/2020 19:27:23
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that doesn't sound good. I have a fullsize 80 NIB, just wondering what I've got that would be an easy swap. Maybe the Wot4. It'll make a change from throwing a Panic together, I need to solder connectors on the 60A unit destined for that so I can try them both out.

Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 19:36:05
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I have what must be the Arduino interface for BL-Heli32.

Just remind me - this connects to -Ve and signal of the throttle lead and the ESC has to be powered?

Mike Blandford10/04/2020 19:45:41
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I had a similar problem, I ran my neuron first on 3 sells as I didn't want the current to go too high,it all worked fine.
I then changed to a 4-cell pack and retested, again all worked fine. Then I wanted to test something else, so just put a 3-cell pack in again, and the motor hardly ran.

The solution was to change the ramp up power setting, I went from 50% to 75%, then it worked OK on 3 cells again.

Mike

Chris Bott - Moderator10/04/2020 19:53:55
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Oh that's reassuring. Thanks Mike.

I've not connected BLHeliSuite32 to this one at all yet.

Tempted as I am to go and give this a try right now, there's a good few mosquitos out in the garden and I don't half react to the bites..
One thing we do have at the moment is plenty of time, so I'll hold off until tomorrow.

I have the ardunio and a cable and the software is still on the laptop.
I might also see if I can find my OTG cable and re-familiarise myself with doing it using my phone too.

Chris Bott - Moderator11/04/2020 15:30:41
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Update - all sorted.

At ramp up power = 75%, 5S was giving me about 600W but with ramp up power pushed up to 100% I'm gettng just over 1KW.
I can only assume that that's flat out now. I'm not sure how I'd check, easily?

So that leaves me really wanting 5.5S batteries. Or maybe I'll clip a 16x10 down to 15.5" and use 6S.

(Or I'll fly the 10lb Sea Fury with 1600W as everything is well within spec. The Neuron does give the most excellent throttle control, after all).

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:31:09

Andy4811/04/2020 15:33:25
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Posted by Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:30:41:

Update - all sorted.

At ramp up power = 75%, 5S was giving me about 600W but with ramp up power pushed up to 100% I'm gettng just over 1KW.
I can only assume that that's flat out now. I'm not sure how I'd check, easily?

So that leaves me really wanting 5.5S batteries. Or maybe I'll clip a 16x10 down to 15.5" and use 6S.

(Or I'll fly the 10lb Sea Fury with 1600W as everything is well within spec. The Neuron does give the most excellent throttle control, after all).

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:31:09

Why not use the current limiter on the Neuron and leave everything else as it is?

Chris Bott - Moderator11/04/2020 15:40:35
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That's not a bad idea at all, Andy48. Thanks.

We used to avoid that sort of thing because the biggest losses are while PWM switching is going on. But I guess things are way beyond that issue these days and anyway, that's how I'd be flying at part throttle.

I'll give it a go and see if I can adjust to a linear throttle range. I'd rather it doesn't just top out with stick part way up. If that makes sense?

I guess a similar way will be to alter the Tx endpoint. Or both.

Bob Cotsford11/04/2020 15:53:17
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That's good to know in case of similar issues, though I'll have forgotten it by the end of the week frown.

I take it a 16*8 or 15*10 are too far out? On my 430kv motors I use 6S and use either 8 or 10" pitch depending on the model. I must admit I do have a couple of models running Power52 equivalent motors (500kv?) which would be better suited to 5S but I run them on 6S with 12*8 props iirc as it makes packing the car easier to pack if I only have 3S,4S and 6S to choose from.

Chris Bott - Moderator11/04/2020 16:05:03
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Having assumed I only had one pitch size each of 15" and 16" props, I'm very surprised to have dug out both a 16x8 and a 15x10.

So a top up charge is in order and yet further testing.

Thanks Bob, Andy48 and Mike. Yet another good idea in this thread.

I would like to stick to 6S if at all possible, for the same reasons. thumbs up

Tim Ballinger11/04/2020 16:19:03
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Only just noticed this. I guess I could look in the blheli manual but what is the purpose of the ramp up power setting and I am reading this correctly that the value gets chang3d when you change the pack size?

Tim

 

Edited By Tim Ballinger on 11/04/2020 16:20:52

Bob Cotsford11/04/2020 16:40:27
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From Oscarliang.com:

Rampup Power

Rampup Power is a setting designed to reduce current spikes due to the sudden increases in throttle by limiting the change of power.

If the motors are pushing close to the limit of your ESC’s, current spikes from punch-outs could inflict damage, reducing Rampup Power can lessen this risk.

Leave it at default if you are unsure, as setting it too low can lead to slow motor response.

Tim, no it doesn't change on it's own but Mike is suggesting changing it from the default 50%. Chris has confirmed that for his setup 100% worked. Perhaps the lower settings are simply limiting the motor's ability to accelerate to the point where they reach a steady state at full throttle?

Here are the settings from the Neuron 60S's fitted in my Deuces Wild which are driving the motors up to 600+W each on 4S. You can see Ramp-Up Power is set to 50%. I have no idea where Eep_ESC_Layout=Neuron_40 came from!

[ESC0]
Eep_Name=Neuron 60S Right
Eep_ESC_Layout=Neuron_40
Eep_ESC_Mode=2
Eep_FW_Main_Revision=32
Eep_FW_Sub_Revision=60
Eep_Layout_Revision=42
Eep_Pgm_Direction=1
Eep_Pgm_Rampup_Pwr=50
Eep_Pgm_Pwm_Freq=24
Eep_Pgm_Comm_Timing=16
Eep_Pgm_Demag_Comp=2
Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Min_Throttle=1040
Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Center_Throttle=1500
Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Max_Throttle=1960
Eep_Pgm_Enable_Throttle_Cal=1
Eep_Pgm_Temp_Prot_Enable=140
Eep_Pgm_Volt_Prot=0
Eep_Pgm_Curr_Prot=0
Eep_Pgm_Enable_Power_Prot=1
Eep_Pgm_Brake_On_Stop=50
Eep_Pgm_Beep_Strength=40
Eep_Pgm_Beacon_Strength=80
Eep_Pgm_Beacon_Delay=600
Eep_Pgm_LED_Control=0
Eep_Pgm_Max_Acceleration=0
Eep_Pgm_Nondamped_Mode=1
Eep_Pgm_Curr_Sense_Cal=100
Eep_Note_Config=255
Eep_Pgm_Sine_Mode=0
Eep_Pgm_Auto_Tlm_Mode=1
Eep_Hw_Voltage_Sense_Capable=0
Eep_Hw_Current_Sense_Capable=0
Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_0=2
Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_1=1
Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_2=3
Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_3=0
Eep_Nondamped_Capable=1
Eep_Note_Array=

Bob Cotsford11/04/2020 16:46:09
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From the Neuron 80 manual:

Rampup Power can be set to relative values from 3% to 150%. 3% is the
minimum power to start the engine and 150% is the maximum power to
operate the motor normally.

That really makes things clear!sad  With the 50% setting my UltraStick is still recording 1400W on take-off wink

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 11/04/2020 16:48:38

Chris Bott - Moderator11/04/2020 17:22:37
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Clear as mud laugh

OK - Results for the 16x8. Seems a good one to settle on, to me.

img_20200411_171529.jpg

Bob Cotsford11/04/2020 19:15:19
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What's that Chris, a 320kv? I think my 430kv's run about 1300W on a 15*10 if I remember correctly. If it's the Seagull SeaFury it should be quite sprightly at that.

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