|6587 forum posts|
Bob said " The Superphatic that I've got dries very rubbery, it is a FiveStar branded one "
The glue I used is marked Super'Phatic! and is the stuff made by Deluxe Materials and is probably a trademark so whatever Bob used is not the same stuff. Of course it could be very similar or it might not. Five Star has something called Hingeite which I thought would be similar, but I couldn't get on with it - perhaps I didn't use it correctly or perhaps it went off in storage.
So if anyone who uses Super'Phatic can advise us how they get on with it and whether it stores well for a year or more then I would be pleased to hear. I am reluctant to use the Hingeite on hinges either until I know it works well.
|Gervaise Vernon Retail manager StarLoc||03/07/2020 21:33:30|
|8 forum posts||
Superphatic by deluxe is very hard , similar to a waterbased acrylic varnish, some people like it some don't,
I don't like the deluxe one or the Five Star one we sell, I find neither wick in well enough and prefer to use a real aliphatic resin (used like a pva...the thick glue ) or a wicking thin cyano if wicking is required.
The FiveStar products one superAliphatic was launched around the same time but is completely different base, it is based on a very hard waterbased self curing synthetic rubber made with an adhesive base produced by the worlds largest chemical company from Germany ( it sets at a very low water loss but once water leaves it cures to a very high strength, people think it has set once it `coagulates` but 95% of the curing is still to go, it is rubbery until it sets fully ).
Many people like our one as it sands better and is stronger but there is a knack to using it.
Neither SuperAliphatic super aliphatic or the other one ( something like active aliphatic ) are really related to a real aliphatic resin glue like `aliphatic resin ` or titebond other than they are a glue.... `real` aliphatic resins do not wick into joints, you use than just like a pva glue
Derek hardman from solarfilm ( I think it was him...) once told people how to make a substiture for superphatic in an aeromodeller article by adding methanol and water to pva glue...
The hingeite is totally different chemical again , its a waterbased emulsion but of a diffrenet resin and different plastic, , its not wicking needs to be applied into the slots just like the pacer hinge glue, designed to bond to almost aby surface, very similar to a canopy glue but harder to give higher tensile strength due to smaller bonding area
Edited By Gervaise Vernon Retail manager StarLoc on 03/07/2020 21:36:48
Edited By Gervaise Vernon Retail manager StarLoc on 03/07/2020 21:37:50
|Bob Cotsford||03/07/2020 21:49:47|
8646 forum posts
Thanks for the explanation Gervaise, does your Superphatic deteriorate with age? The bottle that I have may be a few years old now.
|Gervaise Vernon Retail manager StarLoc||03/07/2020 21:54:54|
|8 forum posts|
It should work fine if it is still liquid , but if it has been frozen ( bellow 8C ) it can turn to a bottle of lumps in water occasionally . if it has been in bright light it can darken but still works the same.
1518 forum posts
I've been using Deluxe Material Superhatic for years - because I get a strong adverse reaction to CA, so I substitute Superphatic instead of CA for most balsa to balsa joints. I haven't had a problem with things coming undone, but I haven't done a huge amount of bare balsa building in recent years. I often go over the joints in ARTFs with Superphatic as well.
However in response to requests in this thread I did do a test with some scrap balsa. The was a piece of fairly thick sheet and a piece of about 1/2" square balsa strip, pinned together and with Superphatic wicked into the joint, as I would normally use it. This bottle of Superphatic is several years old, has gone quite brown with exposure to the light I don't recall whether it was in my glue box indoors in previous years, but more than likely it was, but last winter it was definitely stored in unheated workshop and sub-freezing temperatures.
The joint has had 32 hours curing time, as I made it up on Thursday evening. I photographed it this morning -first picture, then tried to break the joint. With quite considerable force in trying to pull the pieces apart the balsa sheet broke along the grain, just off the glue line. Then I tried to break it again and eventually manage to separate the pices -again, with considerable force, which broke the piece of strip, leaving chucks and fibres close to, but not on the glue line. The balsa failed, rather than making a clean break at the glue line, as seen in the second picture.
I'm more than happy to continue to use the Deluxe Materials Superphatic as my main glue for balsa-to-balsa and ply joints. I concur with the previous posts that this glue is nothing like the normal, thick, aliphatic glues -it has the same consistency as semi-skimmed milk - and is used in a different way. For me, with the sort of models I build, the assemble, pin (or clamp) and wick the glue technique works, but it would be trivial to coat both surfaces, then clamp together if preferred. The glue definitely does wick into the joint and into the balsa.
Edited By leccyflyer on 04/07/2020 10:03:04
|Bob Cotsford||04/07/2020 10:23:33|
8646 forum posts
Nowt wrong with that joint leccy, any joint where the wood breaks is good enough. I would be interested to see how it would get on with an end grain joint, eg a joint between longeron and upright in a built up fuselage. Over the years I think this is the one type of joint that I've seen fail more often than any other. Presumably it's because of glue wicking up the grain away from the joint. Even with pre-cementing I've still seen these fail.
1518 forum posts
Happy to run another test Bob - I'll make up a longeron to upright joint, with and without gussets and give it a test this afternoon.
|Bob Cotsford||04/07/2020 15:05:51|
8646 forum posts
1518 forum posts
Here's the second test with the Superphatic with some 1/4" square medium balsa longerons, pinned to the board, glue wicked in and left for 24hours. The glue is setting quite brown and a bit rubbery bot sands okay.
In the first instance I just made a butt joint, simulating a longeron and an upright. Once set the joint seemed very solid and it took some considerable force to break it. I couldn;t get it to part by just pulling directly orhogonal to the longeron, but the joint did fail when I put some twisting motion in at the same time.
The before shot shows that the glue wicked in nicely round and into the joint.
Examining the failed joint after testing to destruction the joint failed very close to the joint line, but did fail within the upright itself. In other words the wood broke, not the glue.
With joints of this type though, I like to fit at least one, if not two gussets. Which looked like this.
That did feel stronger, especially once I started twisting, and broke away leaving bringing quite a bit of the longeron and gusset away from the joint, reauiring more force. I did screw a wee hook into the upright and thought I might be a bit more scientific by adding weights to the joint until it failed, but this will do, I'm still happy to use this glue for my balsa to balsa and ply joints.
|Bob Cotsford||05/07/2020 17:30:06|
8646 forum posts
I'm beginning to think the only glue not strong enough for our wooden structures is Prit-stick!
|Andy Joyce||13/07/2020 17:47:35|
266 forum posts
Having read this thread purchased some Deluxe products Aliphatic Resin. Well impressed far better than PVA so thanks for the advice as would never have purchased this product otherwise.
|Peter Miller||13/07/2020 18:15:02|
11222 forum posts
I have been using Deluxe Ptoducts Superphatic for years
I use it for one specific job
When I build my wings I lay down the lower sheet and build the wing on top of it. Once the ribs are glued down I raise the leading edge sheet and pin it to the leading edge WITH THE WING STILL PINNED DOWN. See any of my build blogs
At this stage I run Superphatic along the leading edge and each rib.It wicks in and then dries. Perfect for that job.
|Martin McIntosh||13/07/2020 20:03:38|
3472 forum posts
I scarcely use anything other than thin Zap and the medium where necessary, plus Titebond to go over joints. Delux RCM stuff can also be useful. Epoxy usually only used on foam wing u/c fixings or similar.
|chris larkins||13/07/2020 20:18:06|
220 forum posts
During lockdown I needed some wood glue for a Peter Miller Ohmen build, Toolstation was open so I bought some Evo-Stick 'seriously strong stuff'. I am really happy with it, it grabs very quickly and when set is almost clear. As an added bonus as the bottle is bigger than the typical modelling glue bottles I have used it on several other projects around the house....... and still have loads left.
|Piers Bowlan||13/07/2020 20:52:01|
2167 forum posts
Evo Stick claim it dries in 10-20 minutes and is stronger than other wood glues (PVA?). When dry is it sandable Chris or is it slightly rubbery when dry?
|chris larkins||13/07/2020 21:03:57|
220 forum posts
It dries pretty hard although as with all 'PVA type' glues it is very slightly rubbery, saying that though it does seem to sand pretty well. I haven't timed how quickly it grabs but it is very quick compared to a normal white glue
|Vecchio Austriaco||14/07/2020 14:52:39|
1513 forum posts
Tony said: can you trust CA glues to build an entire airframe
Vecchio says: yes you can. Especially where it is balsa to balsa it is perfect. If there is also harder, dense, wood in the game I would be careful.
Trick with the balsa is: you have to adjust the parts to glue together accurately, then apply the CA which will wick through and job done. If you are impatient buy an accelerator spray. For balsa this is normally not needed, as balsa wood contains enough humidity to kick the reaction rapidly. (Accelerator: for instance Bond it, 200ml approx.5£. Will last for many projects)
So what we need is a certain thin grade.
Do we need to pay a lot?
If we want thin CA the answer is no. Poundland sells "stick it" resealable CA, 3 bottles for 1£ ( ahem - well we are at poundland....) . They come with very thin (1.4mm) extra nozzles which make small portions in tricky positions an easy job. The bottles sometimes clog up at the top, a good glass head pin and the case is solved. And even if not - I am happy to throw 33p in the bin without any pain....
Would send a photo but I just noticed that I ran out.... If you find them, take 3, so you have some reserve. As long as they are not open thy will keep forever (well a chemist may have a different opinion)
End of cost saving actions....
VA, running for his crash helmet to defend against negative comments....
|ken anderson.||14/07/2020 17:03:12|
8713 forum posts
welcome back gerhard..
ken anderson....ne..1..welcome dept.
|Tosh McCaber||14/07/2020 18:23:30|
|128 forum posts|
A tip that I got many years ago, is to place your (new, unused!) CA in the freezer, where it will last indefinitely, rather than a few months to a year! Thaw it out before use.
Maybe not applicable with the 30p variety, which I have also used, very successfully!
Edited By Tosh McCaber on 14/07/2020 18:24:05
|Vecchio Austriaco||14/07/2020 21:44:16|
1513 forum posts
Thanks Ken. I missed all your departments...
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