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Law - am I breaking bylaws?

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matt jarvis20/08/2009 23:19:25
38 forum posts
48 photos
I fly electric parkflyers on my own or with my brother inlaw on the edge of dartmoor just on the outskirts of Plymouth in a small clearing surronded by gorse bushes and scrub,we have been flying there in a safe manner for a couple of years not bothering anyone or animals.
Yesterday I finished flying and was walking back to my car when a national trust worker stopped his landrover next to me and said I was'nt to fly here again as I was breaking local bylaws,I appologised and said I was'nt aware of any laws and was flying quiet electric planes and was'nt bothering anyone.
So, dose anyone know if we are breaking the law or not.?
I know there are flying clubs in the area but we prefer to fly alone for fun.
many thanks
Tim Mackey20/08/2009 23:25:55
20920 forum posts
304 photos
15 articles
I believe that NO electric models of any type are permitted on any land owned / managed by the national trust. Now that the matter has been raised, you have nowt to lose in asking for further information from the national trust - but dont expect to regain permission to fly if what I suspect is true.
PS have just looked it up, and I think this confirms it unfortunately.
flytilbroke20/08/2009 23:34:53
2083 forum posts
5 photos
He is probably correct. However, as far as I know,  National Trust whether English or Scots version do not allow flying without permission. They also have a thing about any form of power flying in most or all of thier land areas.
Look up "National Trust" and ask. Maybe even a Web Search?
flytilbroke20/08/2009 23:36:16
2083 forum posts
5 photos
Posted while waiting for advert Timbo beat me to it.
andy watson21/08/2009 00:52:13
1942 forum posts
20 photos
Interestingly the reasons given for allowing unpowered flight do not rule out electric flight- they seem to be really meaning no ic flight. 
It might be worth trying to negotiate with them, especially as there is some reference to powered flight being allowed.  I would suggest BMFA membership would help your cause, even if you are not a club member.  It might also help to try have the BMFA represent you- it seems like there are clear lines of communication between the BMFA and the NT.
Finally I would also say that whilst in this case the person was absolutely correct in his knowledge of the bylaws, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for specific reference to the bylaws people are quoting, as well as their identities.  It is not exactly unknown for jumped up jobsworths with clipboards to invent their own bylaws!
John Privett21/08/2009 22:56:53
6042 forum posts
241 photos
I see the National Trust's logo includes the caption "for ever, for everyone." 
Everyone except power model flyers it appears...
Erfolg22/08/2009 15:51:12
11731 forum posts
1329 photos
I understand that NT permitt the flying of power models at Tatton Park. If correct it seems that objections are not necessarily absolute.
The BFMA could take a lead with the NT, with reference to "electric" flight, as this branch of the hobby is relatively silent. Yes I know that there are even electric flyers whom seem to delight in making their models noisy, yet as a general principle electrics are not noisey.
Other than insurance, effective repesentaion to the EU on 2.4Ghz, what do they do for me?
This is something else which is useful.
TonyS22/08/2009 21:14:47
1145 forum posts
323 photos
Hi All,
Just to expand on the topic slightly.
Being fairly new to model flying, I'm flying my electric planes from a farmer's field opposite my house (with his permission). I try to avoid over-flying local caravans, roads, houses etc etc.
I'm a member of the BMFA and a local club - where I fly my IC plane because of the noise.
Is it legal to pick up a plane and fly it in any old field. Does my BMFA insurance cover me?
Tim Mackey22/08/2009 22:36:11
20920 forum posts
304 photos
15 articles
If you have permission - as you say you do -  then you must satisfy yourself that the operation of your model is not likely to endager people or property. Overflying of a road, or "populated" area may well contravene this. The handbook gives pretty comprehensive guidelines about this, but the final decision is yours.... so use common sense, and if in doubt discuss your flying"site" with the BMFA office.

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 22/08/2009 22:39:54

Alex Leigh22/08/2009 22:47:10
892 forum posts
56 photos
1 articles
I fly my electric glider over the field by our house. And the big field opposite. But I have permission from both farmers and neither field is near a road. Worse thing I am going to do is take out a small area of crop or a dumb sheep
Got insurance tho, Timbo is right it's just common sense. 
Glyn R07/10/2009 23:15:59
443 forum posts
179 photos
In general you need the landowners permission to fly from his land. Your insurance will only cover you if you have the owners permission to do this.
John A Cole19/10/2009 17:49:14
56 forum posts
9 photos
so adding to the debate (some friends had a number of views on this!),..... what if you were flying from a public footpath/right of way? across a piece of land?
David Turner19/10/2009 18:22:43
76 forum posts
Many's the time that I've flown from back roads and tracks. No problem, as far as I can see. Recover the model to the roadside.
No trespassing involved. No undue risk to anyone, as far as I can see.  If you are breaking no laws, I don't see how the insurance can fail to provide you with cover.
In fact, my regular flying site is quite densely populated by members of the public, owing to its being a piece of Common Land. And RC flying is specifically permitted there, according to the bye-laws.
Big T19/11/2009 13:29:38
218 forum posts
202 photos
Dont forget you are covered by the ANO wherever you fly in the UK.  Check it out.
BB19/11/2009 13:46:34
1182 forum posts
32 photos
ANO - Aside.  They ARE legally required to post 'promintant' notices on their land/boundaries & entrancies.  It is NOT legal enough of a notice to be a 'direction' to a building or website for a list of encumbernt rules applying to 'that' land or space.
Any legally employed 'ranger/advocate/employee' on such land IS required by law to;
A) Show ID
B) Explain, said applicable rules/guidelines
C) Be able upon request.  Show relevant signage pertaining to implied restrictions.

Edited By Basildon Biggles on 19/11/2009 13:53:18

Allan Bennett20/11/2009 12:07:43
1680 forum posts
49 photos
Going back to the original question (a bit late, I know), so far as I know it is illegal to fly model aircraft anywhere -- never mind whether it's National Trust land, or who's it is -- without the owner's permission.  Most insurance will probably have a get-out clause if you're not flying legally.
Bruce Richards20/11/2009 12:17:12
1849 forum posts
Allan, what makes you think it is illegal to fly model aircraft anywhere. As far as I know (and I think what others are saying above) it is legal to fly anywhere as long as it is safe and not specifically forbidden.
David Turner20/11/2009 12:20:05
76 forum posts
Posted by Allan Bennett on 20/11/2009 12:07:43:
Going back to the original question (a bit late, I know), so far as I know it is illegal to fly model aircraft anywhere -- never mind whether it's National Trust land, or who's it is -- without the owner's permission.  Most insurance will probably have a get-out clause if you're not flying legally.
That's interesting.
You don't own the airspace over your land, so I can fly an inch above your field, provided that I comply with the respect of model aircraft; in short, that I don't endanger persons or property. That's legal.
The sticky bit is the take-off and landing. Suppose that I hand-launch and hand-recover my plane?
Supposing that I take-off and land from a public space, such as a road-side verge?
Or that I fly my helicopter from the roof-top of my car, landing back on the car at the end of the flight?
 I've never heard of any such  legal restriction on modellers. It would be educational to see some evidence of any restrictive legislation.
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator20/11/2009 12:31:22
15748 forum posts
1460 photos
I think Erfolg's got a good point. The National Trust website is surprising well informed about model flying - even citing the ANO. So they obviously have had some fairly extensive dealings with the BMFA.
The best approach would probably be to get the BMFA to work at extending the permission to electric powered models, which - to me at least - would not seem unreasonable.
Erfolg20/11/2009 13:57:47
11731 forum posts
1329 photos
I have heard some adverse comment regarding Model gliders flying from Teds Nose, NR Macclesfield, in that the BFMA, sold model fliers interest short,  with the local council who own the park. I do admit that I know nothing of the details, other than modellers have flown from there, for many years. 
We do need the BFMA to work for our interests. It is all to easy to capitulate on the grounds of H&S.
I would like to see the BFMA work to gain more sites for
a) Slope soarers
b) Encourage the NT to open more of its park lands and open spaces to both "gliders and electric models".
c) may be start an effective opportunity for model flight form moor lands and other common type sites, maybe as part of the right to roam legislation.
Non of the above would be easy. Some modellers are unfortunately, irresponsible, thoughtless etc. Yet we should recognise that many councils,have vested interests, can be bigoted, and equally uncompromising and selfish, or just "Jobs Worth's".
At a personal level I want the BFMA to primarily
1) arrange effective and cost efficient insurance as a member
2) Maintain and gain access to sites for flying. Definitely not meekly, acquiesce to authorities who wish to prevent reasonable activity. I can capitulate very easily. the BMFA and its representatives need backbone, present good arguments and be persuasive.
Other functions are less important, to me. Particular international competitions etc.
Unfortunately I do think that IC power flying is increasingly on a hiding to nothing, due to noise and mass/weight.
In general terms, it is not unreasonable to assume that some form of authorisation will always be required to be there, be it by legislation  or at a personal level agreement.
Erfolg .  

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