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Electric Flair Pupeteer

What no oil burner!

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Danny Fenton03/09/2009 23:56:13
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Well I have done the se5a and the baronette so thought I may as well repair a very sad looking pupeteer that was given up for dead. I like a challenge.
 
The model was involved in a pretty bad crash and the front end was more or less non existant, but there were a few reference points remaining. One of the cabane struts and wing mountings were ripped out. There was not much of a bulkhead and the sides had gone. When i took the covering off the rear of the fus all the stringers fell apart hjust to add insult to injury!
 
The wings are fine apart from a broken spar buried in the centre section of the lower wing.....
 
I am going to be doing this one electric, no surprise there those that know me. And guess what 6s2p A123. I am using a big motor, not so much for the power but the weight and the ability to turn a large prop. I am aiming for between around 18 x 10.
 
Just to make it interesting I am splitting the fus just behind the cockpit for transport, instead of taking the wings off. Gavin, whose model this is wants it done this way, and who am I to argue.
 
 
Anyway I will let the pictures tell the story.......
 

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Danny Fenton04/09/2009 00:02:55
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While I was building the new nose i decided to shorten the nose by 1.25 inches. It would still be too long but would make it look a little more scale than cartoon scale
 
You may have to wait a while for the finished model as I am doing a demo at one of our club nights on covering and will demonstrate using the wings. I will try and cover the fus tomorrow evening if I can squeese in an hour.

Cheers
Danny
Tim Mackey04/09/2009 00:07:13
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Very nice work Danny .
I did consider the idea of cutting the camel behind  its hump somewhere, but the RSPCA got wind of the plan and forbade me
Frankly, I dont have the guts or skill to carry off that type of surgery on the rather nicely covered and finished H9 camel.

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 04/09/2009 00:07:57

Danny Fenton04/09/2009 09:01:29
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Thanks Tim, If you can match the covering its not so bad but scary none the less.
 
Have you noticed with ARTF's we take much longer to build them because we are terrified of losing the integrity of the flaming covering. If it had none in the first place we would modify away with no fear!
 
I like the idea of being able to simulate some fancy rigging and not have to take it apart, but getting the fit of the front half to the back snug and reliable is a challenge. Still the loads are not high. It fits well now, but add a layer of Solartex and I am sure the fit will be ruined.........
 
Un fortunately despite telling the owner that this is STAND WAY-OFF SCALE he is insisting on doing the model as Dunnings Pup, how do you simulate alloy panels without using lith plate, is there a chrome iron on film still available?
 
Cheers
Danny
 
 
Tim Mackey04/09/2009 10:30:24
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I have finished the rigging on the camel now danny - non functonal I hasten to add ) and used dressmakers black elastic cord - looks OK to me but I am not scale purist. I will post some pictures on the Camel thread if interested. I have a large roll of self adhesive "chrome tape" here which is perhaps too shiny to be alloy, but it sticks very well.
Aldi I think it was. Lithoplate is probably best, but obviously heavier - I have few sheets of litho here if you need any let me know.
Richard Wood04/09/2009 11:11:21
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Nice job Danny.
Profilm do a chrome film, & Flair have 'Aluclad' although I've
no personal experience of 'em.
Both are on the SMC website.
That's a canny selection of glues on your shelf there Danny.
Which do you use for general wood joints?
The drying time of standard PVA tends to hold up construction
too much sometimes.
Could do with something a bit quicker but still with a little jiggling
time.
 
Cheers
Richard
 
Danny Fenton07/09/2009 12:03:23
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Hi guys, sorry the mail alerting has flown South again and didn't see your posts.
 
I have some Aluclad from Flair and use a bit for panels etc on warbirds its good stuff. Ideally the surface underneath needs to be pretty hard as the aluclad is not very ding proof. But it sticks like the proverbial. Dulled down it would be a good solution.
 
Chrome film would probably be asy too, but as you say it may be too glossy and they can be difficult to tone down, but worth a try.
Lith plate is the answer of course, but I really don't want to spend any more time on this. If the owner wants to do it afterwards then it wouldn't be hard to fit after I hand it over lol.
Thanks for the offer Tim, I do have some stock, never enough lol but i try to conserve where i use it. But when I run out I will let you know
 
This is where I am up to and I need some advice.
 

You may just be able to see that there is a hatch at the front, it is held on with magnets and boy do they grip!!! anyway on Thomas the triplane, I used the machine guns as handles to pull the hatch off. There is nothing near this hatch any thoughts on what I could do for handles?
 
Cheers
Danny
Bob Cotsford07/09/2009 14:49:20
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a quick look through Google images makes it look as though the petrol tank was between the cockpit and the engine bulkhead, which means there would probably have been a filler cap somewhere on top, maybe between the guns.  I didn't have time for a good search, but even a  non-scale one wouldn't look out of place there.
Danny Fenton07/09/2009 16:36:05
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Good idea Bob and thanks, but i stumbled on a simple solution. There is just enough of a gap for a small steel ruler to slide in, a slight twist and its open
 
Here is the finished fus.
 

Will try and get the tail feathers sorted now.
 
Cheers and thanks Bob
 
Danny
 
Ben Mullins07/09/2009 17:16:28
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Looks like the same colours as a Sea Fury! I really admire your building skills, I better get practicing!
Danny Fenton07/09/2009 18:18:00
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9626 forum posts
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Hi Ben thanks mate, it is just practice patience and the right tools.
 
Hi Richard sorry just re-read your post. Yes  like to have the right glue for any ocassion. I know do most of my building with Zap thin or thick zap-a-gap, and zap accelerator. The zap-a-gap gives you a bit longer.
 
If I am sheeting then I use a guy I chat with on the forums glue called SuperPhatic, its an aliphatic glue, so behaves a bit like a cross between pva and super glue. It soaks in like thin cyano, but dries slowly like pva. I also use the various settings of Epoxy but not very much if I can help it. Its not the glue that makes a joint strong its the type of joint lol.
 
A neat trick with sheeting is to use aliphatic on both surfaces press them together then take them apart and let them dry. after an hour or so press them together with a household iron, the heat activates the glue and the pressure of the iron holds it down.
 
Cheers
Danny
 
Richard Wood08/09/2009 15:15:00
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1096 forum posts
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Hi Danny,

Thanks for the recommendations.

I must try some slow Zap.

Always wary of instant cyanos because of the zero fiddling time factor.They're good for tack glueing though.
I used it to stick some le sheet recently when impatient.
The alignment
was slightly off despite checking & it took much longer to sort out than if I'd used a slower glue in the first place!
Nearly did a similar thing with contact glue on fuselage doublers!

You live & learn.

That trick with aliphatic glue looks worth a try.
 
I once used Hammerite paint to simulate metal panels & it didn't look
too bad at all.
 
Cheers
Richard
 
 

Edited By Richard Wood on 08/09/2009 15:17:56

Edited By Richard Wood on 08/09/2009 15:18:40

Danny Fenton08/09/2009 17:21:24
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I do know what you mean Richard, if its a large area of sheeting then Aliphatic or pva and a million pins is sometimes the safest route, what's the phrase, less haste more speed?
 
Thanks for the tip on Hamerite, do you mean Hamerite or Smoothrite? I think that would need a test to see how it looked. The problem is that it needs to match the spun alloy cowl. Though I suppose you could paint that with the same paint
 
Tail surfaces are all covered now and I am just brush painting the red white and blue stripes on the rudder and elevator top and bottom as per RNAS Pup
 
Cheers
Danny
propogandhi08/09/2009 23:32:44
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359 forum posts
273 photos
Hey Danny, sorry, I've been out of the loop for a while, but its great to see your progress on the Pup. She's really coming together nicely, very neat and tidy too as usual. Do you know the AUW of your glow version before the crash? I'm always interested to see how much weight has been saved when converting a glow model to electric. I know my Maggy was only slightly under the suggested IC AUW For example a 1/4scale  84" flybaby I picked up at the nationals, should, by my calulation end up at least 1.5bls lighter than the auw of the model powered by glow. Its one of the main reasons I'm enjoying conversions so much.
 
BTW, just a quick off topic question as I know your an avid user of A123 cells, For this 84" flybaby I was thinking of going with 6 cell A123 pack. Do you think this will be enough cells or might I need to go to 7cells? I have a target weight of 9.8lbs.
 
Look forword to seeing more danny. Oh did you get the SE5A fying ok in the end? cAan't remember the out come of that.
 
 
prop.
Danny Fenton09/09/2009 18:32:25
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9626 forum posts
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Hi Prop, good to hear from you. And thanks for the kind words, the camera lighting hides all the bad bits.....
The Se5a is still fighting back. My next step is to replace two unknown servos and the BEC just to eliminate them. after that its the bring and buy at the end of the month
 
I club member brought his shiny new pupeteer to club night the other week and I asked if we could weigh it. It came out at exactly 8lbs, thats with a 52 4 stroke (no fuel). The Flair site says around 10lbs. This one that I have repaired is not very light. It was bathed in balsaloc, and as you know the airframe is made of liteply. I am budgeting on about the same weight as your Flybaby.
 
I think you will be struggling for much duration on 6s you could go for the extra cell, but if I were you I would go for 6s2p as I have in this and Timbo has in his Dromaderie, I know its a lot more cells but you will get a much longer flight, maybe even two per charge if its not too windy. A big slow prop on a low kv motor and watch out for the torque! No full throttle go-arounds or it will be full throttle rolls into the ground.
 
It sounds daft but i like to start with what size prop I want to fly on and work from there. what would be the scale prop for the Flybaby?
 
Cheers
Danny
 
 
propogandhi10/09/2009 01:06:44
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Hey Danny. Prop wise, well I put this to George of 4-max (i've been getting alot of my motors from him of late, nice guy and good motors for the price), here's what he says:
 
"Hi Stuart

A PPO-5055-580 on a 5S 3,300mAh Pack had the following results

Prop 15x8 APCE
1040W
58.7A
7200RPM
Calculated static thrust 8.17lbs
Calculated Speed 54.55mph

Or you could go to the slightly larger motor for a larger prop.

PPO-5065-380
With a 18x10

You will need a certain amount of weight up the nose and I think one of the
above is the best solution for you.
They will have stacks of power and you should be able to cruse at 1/2
throttle. A smaller motor will fly it but I think you will have C of G problems with a
smaller motor. Plus the props will be smaller. "
 
 I'm not looking for massive amounts of duration plus I'd like to keep the weight down and I guess a 6S2P will take twice as long to charge. My Maggy get 9-12mins (depending on throttle) with a 5cell A123 pack so I'd be happy with 9 mins of flight rather than the extra weight and complication of flying with an 6S2P pack. That said please do tell me if I'm simply misunderstanding the set-up of a 6S2P source.
 
Also I see that now seem to have an  4600mah A123 cell. I can only find upto 2s packs though. Have seen these packs before?
 
 
Sorry for jacking your thread like this, Don't mean to go of topic but this has been on my mind since I got the model and I know you'd be well placed to give some advice.
 
 
Look forward to seeing more,
 
 
 
prop.
Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage10/09/2009 01:29:33
1557 forum posts
58 photos
I read this thread and it could even have been my dads! he also had the idea of having the tail come off behind the cockpit! he also has it configured for 6s2p (well apart from the repairing bit)
 
Despite all this, it has only flown twice :D
 
Oh BTW The vertical performance is brilliant!

Edited By Peter Savage on 10/09/2009 01:30:06

Richard Wood10/09/2009 10:18:46
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1096 forum posts
164 photos
Hi Danny,
The Hammerite I used was the 'hammered' sort.
It was brushed on an ABS cowl & front  end of a semi-scale
Fokker Eindekker built way back in mid 80's.
It did look just like er... hammered metal!
If I did it now I'd probably use the spray on smooth variety.
Not sure how well it would match the Flair ali cowl, but
may be worth a try.
Cheers
Richard
 
Tim Mackey10/09/2009 10:36:48
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20920 forum posts
304 photos
15 articles
Posted by propogandhi on 10/09/2009 01:06:44:
Hey Danny. Prop wise, well I put this to George of 4-max (i've been getting alot of my motors from him of late, nice guy and good motors for the price), here's what he says:
 
"Hi Stuart

A PPO-5055-580 on a 5S 3,300mAh Pack had the following results

Prop 15x8 APCE
1040W
58.7A
7200RPM
Calculated static thrust 8.17lbs
Calculated Speed 54.55mph

Or you could go to the slightly larger motor for a larger prop.

PPO-5065-380
With a 18x10

You will need a certain amount of weight up the nose and I think one of the
above is the best solution for you.
They will have stacks of power and you should be able to cruse at 1/2
throttle. A smaller motor will fly it but I think you will have C of G problems with a
smaller motor. Plus the props will be smaller. "
 
 I'm not looking for massive amounts of duration plus I'd like to keep the weight down and I guess a 6S2P will take twice as long to charge. My Maggy get 9-12mins (depending on throttle) with a 5cell A123 pack so I'd be happy with 9 mins of flight rather than the extra weight and complication of flying with an 6S2P pack. That said please do tell me if I'm simply misunderstanding the set-up of a 6S2P source.
 
Also I see that now seem to have an  4600mah A123 cell. I can only find upto 2s packs though. Have seen these packs before?
 
 
Sorry for jacking your thread like this, Don't mean to go of topic but this has been on my mind since I got the model and I know you'd be well placed to give some advice.
 
 
Look forward to seeing more,
 
 
 
prop.
 
 I think you will find that the "new" cells of 4600 mahr are simply two regular M1 cells in parallel .
I have just re-checked the A123 website, and see no mention of anything new ( other than automative stuff ).
I am using 6s2P in my Camel ( that gave it the hump I can tell ya ! ) and will be content with roughly 20 -30 minute re-charge times at 10A ( maximum for my 1010B+ charger )

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 10/09/2009 10:38:08

Danny Fenton10/09/2009 10:45:45
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9626 forum posts
4449 photos
Hi Prop, yes it sounds like you are sorted. I would agree with george and go for the large motor as i have for this pupeteer, it will need the weight, especially as I have chopped an inch and a quarter off the nose! You are quite right the 6s2p pack would take twice as long to charge, however if you only fly using half the pack then you will halve the charge time. So it is not all bad. Are you fast charging or balancing too?
 
Hi Peter, good to hera from you about your dads, what weight did it come out at? and why has it only flown twice?
 
Hi Richard, I have sprayed the smooth hammerite (black) when I restored an old sports car and it covered like a dream. really hardwearing too. It sounds worth a try.
 
Cheers
Danny

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