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Keil Kraft Super 60

engine size

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Peter Miller20/12/2011 10:49:12
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I still say that stopping and starting 20.000 times A SECOND is excessive rpm for any engine
Myron Beaumont20/12/2011 11:03:30
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5797 forum posts
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Beg your pardon .I misread the text but I think that is what John meant to say
ian ludwell21/12/2011 22:13:05
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85 photos
I aquired a KK Super 60 about a year ago and was into my 1st year of flying and purchased a 2nd hand 2 stroke,no harsh comments now.
The engine was a Thunder Tiger pro 46.
I know what your thinking.
Are motor bikes fast?only if you twist the throttle.
This engine fitted perfectly,balanced beautifully,and flew around gracefully.
It now resides in a newer Super 60 with Ailerons and can be flown in quite breezy weather,but i appreciate it can and probably should have had a smaller engine.
 

 
Peter Miller22/12/2011 09:11:19
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10755 forum posts
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Don't worry. There was one person in another club many years ago who sheet covered the fuselage and fitted a Merco 61.
 
When the wings failed and it went into a small wood the BANG was impressive and the wreckage was spread far and wide!!! Boy! Was it shredded.
 
Well, he should not have looped at full throttle.
John E ( Puffin Models )28/12/2011 17:00:00
35 forum posts
Sorry, yes, of course I should have written 20 thousands times a minute! And even then I am certain that I rounded it up quite a bit, as the revs we thought we were getting were usually quite optimistic - in the case of the Merco 29 and 35 probably VERY optimistic!
 
I never really got the fact that a piston actually has to stop at both TDC and BDC, then accelerate and decelerate in each stroke until I started to teach engine design (full size!). That could be an explanation of why engines that are way over square are providing higher than expected (or rather predicted) power levels.
 
Not sure if David is surprised that I wrote 20 thousand times a second, or the fact I was commenting on engines at all!
 
Regards,
 
John
richard buxton17/01/2012 15:38:09
2 forum posts
Mine flew very nicely with the right power with an os fs40 my brother in laws with an os
fs48 surpass was overpowered but great fun Good Luck
terry westrop25/02/2013 23:17:14
193 forum posts
46 photos

My single channel nylon covered Super Sixty was brill on an enya 35; but that was in 1964! RCS RC gear, conquest escapement...

Mike Etheridge 125/02/2013 23:51:51
1538 forum posts
429 photos

Well my Super 60 with 50 year old Junior 60 wings took off on it's maiden flight and rose vertically under full power from a new Enya 40 SS. Absolutely daft, but OK on low throttle!

My view is that the Super 60 is just a Junior 60 with a 'nose job'---it flies just the same!

Super 60

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 25/02/2013 23:54:11

David Davis26/02/2013 06:02:34
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3598 forum posts
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I've built and flown both the Junior 60 and the Super 60. Doubtless a Super 60 will fly well with a Junior 60's wings but the model is hardly a Junior 60 with a nose job.

The Junior 60 has a heavily undercambered wing aerofoil section which provides lots of lift but also lots of drag resulting in slow flight. The flat bottomed wing section of the Super 60 produces a faster flying model which will fly well in a wind. Agreed, my Super 60 is fitted with a much more powerful engine than the Junior 60 had but even throttled back to tick over it won't fly as slowly as a Junior 60.

I can't agree that a Super 60 is "just a Junior 60 with a 'nose job,' " the tailplane, rudder and fin are totally different. The original Super 60 even had a symmetrical section tailplane unlike the flatplate of both the Junior 60 and the current Ben Buckle Super 60.

Finally, I'm not surprised, Mike, that your hybrid climbs like a helicopter when fitted with a ball-raced 40 two-stroke. A 25 would suit either model!

Edited By David Davis on 26/02/2013 06:06:20

Mike Etheridge 126/02/2013 12:52:29
1538 forum posts
429 photos

David,

My comments were somewhat 'tongue-in-cheek' and I am sure your observations are right. I have yet to re-build the wings for my Super 60 which I acquired on E-bay. The fuselage I have almost totally re-built and it was convenient at the time to borrow the Junior 60 wings I built when I was 15 in 1962/3.

With the Junior 60 wings which of course do have under camber the Super 60 will fly slowly at low throttle but I must admit my original Junior 60 which has no elevator will fly at zero mph relative to the ground in a strong wind. I have always thought the Junior 60 is a brilliant plane but obviously in the early 60's Keil Kraft needed an up-to-date model to keep up with radio development and to compete with rival companies such as Frog who produced the Jackdaw at a slightly higher cost.. Hence the Super 60 which in terms of proportions but not so much shape is to me a close relative of the Junior 60 with dare I say a bigger nose which accommodates a larger fuel tank than can be installed easily in the Junior 60. The dihedral of the original Super 60 was much the same as the 1955 new Junior 60 but was reduced in the Ben Buckle model and presumably in the tricycle under carriage version of the Keil Kraft Super 60?

The Enya SS40 has plain bearings and I bought it for another plane (Cougar) which it did not fit. It was convenient to put it in the Super 60 and I have made bearer plates to install either a PAW 29 or Merco 29 as alternatives to the Enya. I must admit the first flight of the Super 60 was a surprise and had me closing the throttle rapidly. Depending on performance required I reckon the Super 60 will fly happily with a 19 engine. It was originally advertised with an 2.46 cc ED Racer shown, the same engine I have had in my original Junior 60 for 50 years.

Mike

 

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 26/02/2013 12:56:12

Mike Etheridge 126/02/2013 13:32:30
1538 forum posts
429 photos

I forgot to mention that with the longer nose the Super 60 does not need the 1/2 pound of lead that the Junior 60 needs in the front cowling to achieve the right C/G location. I have always wondered why Albert E Hatfault (Spelling?) designed the Junior 60 with such a short nose and it could not be that he needed to accommodate HT and LT batteries as they would not fit in the nose? The original KK Junior 60 was of course designed for free flight.

So if I put myself in the shoes of the the Super 60 designer and was looking to modify the Junior 60 my first consideration would be the nose length and I would have experimented with Junior 60 nose extensions to get the CG right without the lead!

MJE

David Davis26/02/2013 17:30:29
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So if I put myself in the shoes of the the Super 60 designer and was looking to modify the Junior 60 my first consideration would be the nose length and I would have experimented with Junior 60 nose extensions to get the CG right without the lead.

But then would you have changed the dihedral angle, changed the aerofoil section, changed the shape of the tail, wing and fin and mounted the tailplane underneath the fuselage if all you wanted was a Junior 60 with a longer nose?

teeth 2

 

Edited By David Davis on 26/02/2013 17:31:06

richard buxton26/02/2013 17:35:58
2 forum posts

Hi has anyone put flaps on a super60?

Dave Bran26/02/2013 19:10:51
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1898 forum posts
5 photos

I took the name literally, and fitted a merco 61 to mine. That was my first plane, bought as a single channle sans engine, and set up as 3 Channel !

It wasn't overpowered at all.................and survived to become the Club Toffee Bomber.

Mike Etheridge 126/02/2013 20:49:51
1538 forum posts
429 photos

David,

I would say the updated shape of the Super 60 would have obviously been important from a sales point of view but of course it was developed prior to the introduction of proportional radio and was offered as a single channel or free flight model so as such it needed to be inherently stable much the same as the old Junior 60.

Mike

Heaton Craggs25/03/2013 16:02:51
29 forum posts

In the very early '60's I had two Keil Kraft 'Super Sixties' - both were covered with doped nylon and coloured with red Humbrol enamel. My first had a Veco 19 - a very nice engine that started easily, throttled from high to low very reliably and was smooth in terms of vibration. My second was the same, structurally, but powered with an Enya 29 - also totally reliable. Both motors, of course, were unsilenced, the Veco being much quieter than the Enya, though. The radio gear was Metz 3 channel gear. Then, proportional radio was in its infancy and certainly out of my budget; however, the Metz was totally reliable - its receiver was potted in resin to make it vibration proof and the set came with two servos - one for throttle and one for rudder, which took up two channels. If I remember rightly, the Rx was powered by DEACS - the first NiCads I'd ever used! Even with single channel, I managed 'touch and goes' and I never totalled either model - that nylon covering was amazingly strong - much stronger than modern film covering. They were, eventually, stolen out of the garage when I was away, along with my precious collection of engines and control-line planes. Yes.........I have many happy memories of those 'Super Sixty' days!

Edited By Heaton Craggs on 25/03/2013 16:04:26

graeme jones25/03/2013 16:16:52
277 forum posts
28 photos

My current Super 60 has flown on 0.25 2 str, 0.26 4 str, and now uses a Turnigy electric motor with a 3S 5000 LIPO. Flies for at least 30 mins. and has been used as a trainer. Best use though is for a bit of gentle relaxation between flights of more taxing aircraft.

Graeme

David Davis25/03/2013 16:27:56
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3598 forum posts
659 photos

This is my three channel version finished in Vintage Solatex, Irvine 30 up. It's a bit nose heavy, I may fit a Merco 35 and see what difference that makes.

super sixty.jpg

Edited By David Davis on 25/03/2013 16:28:39

David Davis10/04/2013 18:46:00
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3598 forum posts
659 photos

super 60 merco 35 up.jpg

It is my sad duty to report that my much loved Keil Kraft Super Sixty complete with period Merco 35 engine is Missing In Action and must be presumed dead.
What happened was this. I had had several successful sessions with the model over the last week or so and having carried out a few minor alterations, I took the model with the Senior Telemaster to the flying field. I had hoped to meet a club colleague called Alan who is a superb modeller but a very nervous pilot. He is learnng to fly on an electric powered Junior 60, originally a 1946 free flight design. I had helped him to trim out the model over the previous weekend and had planned to take the Super 60, two transmitters and a buddy lead to give him a go on the Super 60 to raise his confidence. I had also planned to use my old but hardly-used Futaba Skysport 4 transmitter as the main transmitter and the 6X Super as the slave because the aerial was found to be loose over the weekend but we managed to tighten it.
Having got to the flying field I found that Alan had already flown and damaged his Junior 60. I said I'd give him a go on the buddy lead with the Super 60. Another pilot, Richard Golding, a retired electronics engineer expressed an interest in having a go too so we all crowded round the Best Mate stand while I started the engine. At this stage we found out that I'd left the Skysport at home so no chance of a buddy, however, having got the engine to start I placed the model on the runway, gave the controls a final check, opened the throttle and off went the model climbing steadily. It turned to the left. I put in right rudder. Nothing happened but the model continued to climb in fairly tight left circles betraying its free flight heritage and the fact that it was fitted with an old PPM receiver. I shoted that I had no control and the stout Super Sixty continued to climb. Alan, Richard and another chap who was there, did all that they could to help me. This involved fetching a Mode 1 Skysport transmitter from the club's training locker and removing the battery and crystal from my set to see whether any control could be re-established. By now I'd abandoned the transmitter and left them to it.I was concentrating on watching the model, the transmitter wasn't controlling anything anyway! It continued to climb then the engine appeared to cut or go to tick over I thought I could still just about hear it but can't be certain. When I last saw it, it was in a flat spiral dive as if the rudder had jammed. It disappeared behind a large tree at the edge of a wood about a thousand yards away from the launch point.Had they managed to get some kind of a signal just before it disappeared? Who knows? We discovered a broken wire in the 6X transmitter when we removed the back later.
Two search parties looked for it in the wood and surrounding fields but there was no sign of it.I expect it's deep in the wood in amongst the undergrowth-covered ponds.
It disappeared near a cross roads. Perhaps I'll print a picture of it and offer a reward to the finder.
Do you know what's really ironic? I bid £10 on a late Merco 29 on eBay at lunchtime and when I last looked I was still the winning bidder.
Farewell Super Sixty, I you were only a three channel vintage model and I only flew you a few times but you were a delight to fly and died like a gentleman!
Small time
But in that small
Most greatly lived this
Star of England.
I've had a beer and a Chinese take-away to cheer myself up.
Happy Landings?
David
ken anderson.10/04/2013 19:11:45
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8557 forum posts
776 photos

go on david a true aeromodeller........hope it(SS60) turns up.........

ken anderson......ne......1........ SS60 dept.

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