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Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel (Pig) Land-Dings

Anyone cracked this beast...

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PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 16:06:22
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856 forum posts
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I have now had 2 Hanger 9 Sopwith Camels and its a great plane to throw about the sky with a good presence but landing it is another issue. I did think it was me but as I have two DR1s a DVII and a Tiger moth - all of which I can land with no problems I started to think things perhaps were not right with the model but this 2nd Camel is still the same "Pig" to land... Also got another experienced club member to have a go and it also gave me a chance to film it to see if anything could be learnt - fast approach, slow approach, three point - all end up the same, looks like it wants to ice skate / waddle the final part of the landing. I tried stiffening up the U/C but that did not help either. I also went looking on YouTube for a Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel landing but you can see them doing a take off and flying but I have not seen any doing a decent landing...

So has anyone cracked this beast yet and turned theirs from a Pig to a Camel!

Please please let me know how its done - but only if you have done it with the Hanger 9 model. If your interested in the little film I made after my friend said "give me a go" you can see the results of his endeavour are the same outcome as mine.

Lets see who comes up with the solution / mod.

Regards Peter

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 29/08/2012 00:23:13

ken anderson.27/08/2012 17:39:39
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8680 forum posts
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too fast most of the time and then - lets the model go off line before its stopped......the speed causing it to try and tip over on one wing...and then go over on its nose.......

kulou

ken anderson ne..1.... nose over dept.....

PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 19:28:14
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Thanks for your input however even with a good head wind and slower ground speed the result is the same - its not the speed its the final final final bit where the speed should not be an issue - that's why I asked for replies from Hanger 9 Camel owners who know how hard this is to land. I have been told of one guy who is looking at fitting a gyro in the hope it helps him. I will be told the results with a bit of luck by a third party - extreme fix but if that's what it takes. SOMEONE must know who has owsmilened one - or like me two... I do honestly suspect there is a design fault but only an owner would know. - Peter

John Olsen 127/08/2012 19:57:30
446 forum posts
23 photos

I don't know , but I do know that the Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel as simulated in Phoenix is about the hardest plane to fly nicely in there. I have the Fokker DVII from the same stable, that one has very nice habits, although I am still not up to flying it without the buddy box. The only time it has ever misbehaved was taking off in a crosswind, something to avoid where possible with biplanes.

Having said that, and bearing in mind that I am very much a learner at the piloting side of things, those landings do look fairly fast. Biplanes have a low wing loading generally, and should be able to come in quite slow. But of course not so slow that you stall too soon.

John

kevin b27/08/2012 20:00:53
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1835 forum posts
145 photos

Does it do the same on a dead stick landing ?

It appears to drop the starboard wing as soon as you release the throttle. Could it be a torque reaction ?

It also appears to bounce a lot. Is there any way of damping the U/C ?

PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 20:10:35
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856 forum posts
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Hi John. Thanks for your reply and I to have the Fokker DVII as well and i's a nice plane to fly with no vices at all but it's so much much lighter than the Camel which has the in-built lead weight box stuffed solid with lead to ensure the CofG is right which is because of it's extra short nose.

I did try reducing the lead content but only a small quantity needs to be removed to screw up the ballance of the plane and then it becomes a bit nasty to fly.

I also have the Phoenix flight sim but although its reasonable in the sim the landings are in no way complimentary to what you get with this model (sigh).face 24

PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 20:17:36
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856 forum posts
112 photos

Hi Kevin.

I myself usually kill the engine as soon as its on the ground to save damaging the prop however my fellow pilot Dave who was flying the plane when I did the video chose not to cut the engine but to leave it on idle when he landed in different manners each time - the end results were the same either way - "the skate" at the end - Reason I call it skating is that its exactly the way you start off ice speed skating. smile

Alan Pennington27/08/2012 20:32:20
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174 forum posts
46 photos

Is the wheel binding making it turn?

Startazz No127/08/2012 20:39:50
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103 forum posts
43 photos

No i'm not going to give any advice as i don't have the model,it is a shame though because it is such a great looking and flying plane,i must admit i was surprised when i read it was a Hanger 9 plane giving you this head ache.

I hope you get someone who has one and can give you the advice or the mod you might need to sort her out.

If not try a google search and see if anything pops up,might be worth a try.smile

Pete B - Moderator27/08/2012 20:39:50
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7651 forum posts
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Relatively narrow track with a high C of G, coupled with a less-than-billiard table surface, is a recipe for waywardness once the tail surfaces lose authority, IMHO. The strip is uneven enough to make the wheels react to the slightest undulation/lump and the rudder/elevator haven't got enough 'leverage' to correct in time.

I suspect that on a good tarmac strip, it may well land and stay upright but, once the controls lose their bite, directional control will be minimal.

One option might be to set dual rates on the elevator, with plenty of upward travel, for the landing phase, with bags of expo and a lot of self-control! teeth 2

Another might be to consider fitting a gyro to the rudder - whether it will still be fast enough to compensate I'm not sure - and we're still back to having adequate control authority.........

Just my 2p worth.........smile

Pete

Edited By Pete B on 27/08/2012 20:40:42

Rusty C27/08/2012 20:44:01
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452 forum posts
29 photos

Just a observation, But that field looks pretty bumpy. That with rock solid U/C and a heap of weight hanging over the axel and a good bit of lift when the tail wheel is about to touch is causing the skippy ride.

Just my penny worth

Rusty

Alwyn Gee27/08/2012 20:49:20
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194 forum posts
4 photos

Hi

I have this model with electric power and whilst it is not the easiest of models to land I have managed more times than not to get it down a lot more dignified than that. I still have the occasional final nose over as it stops but just up onto its nose and back down again. Lately I've had more trouble with it squirming around on take off but i think that's been me being too heavy handed with the throttle.

I would agree with previous comments that it is comming in far too fast and when you are trying to put the tail down it wants to fly again and any rudder movement is amplified by the speed. I find it has to be a slow approach and then stalled into a 3 pointer to have any chance of keeping the tail down on grass. loads of elevator helps as well. If I remember correctly I increased the elevator travel from what was recommended for this reason.I also have 50% differential ailerons and 50% expo on full rates.

Alwyn

John Dimond27/08/2012 21:15:27
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15 forum posts
12 photos

Nothing wrong with your landings - fast or slow - it's just loss of directional control in the roll-out. A turn develops, then a skid, tipping the aircraft onto a wigtip, which reverses the yaw, wheels alternately 'digging in', hence 'waddle', high CG = nose-over.

Increasing rudder area would be a travesty on such a nice scale model, but you could try larger rudder throws, and adding a trickle of power just before the point the ground loop starts to develop.

And always land straight into wind!

Good Luck.

John

PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 21:23:32
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856 forum posts
112 photos

Hi all. This is getting interesting - I have just come off another site and this is a copy of the guys post

quote:

ORIGINAL: kayakcarl

I am flying a Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel with a Magnum .91 4-stoke. It flies great, except for the end of the landing roll. The end of the rollout always ends in a groundloop. It seems to run out of enough air over the tail to hold a straight rollout. I have taped a tailwheel to the skid to see if that would help hold it straight, but it has not helped. Can anyone give some advice?

Thanks - This seems more common than I first imagined? Peter

PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap27/08/2012 21:44:36
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856 forum posts
112 photos

Hi (First) Alan - No wheel binding and also RUSTY asked if the field was bumpy - its not flat but I never have any problems with anything else and it is rolled but the dips are still there. - as I said before its just the Camel (Pig). After going on a few other sites (see copy above) the landing problem is a common gripe about this model - also it used to kill enough pilots with the real thing so I could be on a no winner here. I think JOHN DIMOND has mentioned many valid points regarding this model but that means to cure it I would need to almost butcher it and that would be a shame. ALWYN replied and has an electric version but he did not say if it was the Hanger 9 - seems he has cracked it but if it is the same model could it be that he has the weight box fitted lower down!!! Confirmation if you can ALWYN as there has to be a reason your getting the landings and others are not.

On the other site one person came back and said that perhaps having the wheels fixed to each other could help keep a better track... Anyone else think it could help or do I fit pick axe handles as per my DRI... Keep em coming thanks all. Peter

moorer27/08/2012 22:17:53
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206 forum posts

Maybe a longer,slower and flatter approach might help keeping the tail down with up elevator as soon as it slows enough, but i believe the full size wasnt easy.

Alwyn Gee27/08/2012 22:37:55
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194 forum posts
4 photos

Hi Peter

Yes it is the Hangar 9 version and I would not lay claim to having cracked it completely but as I said earlier I do get more landings to stay upright than nose over tho' they're not always pretty, it can still tip side to side on the wing tips on that narrow undercart. The slower the better to reduce the length of the roll out. Also have to agree with the comment above to try to land directly into wind. Not a good model for a blustery day but a bit of steady head wind helps to reduce the ground speed.

With electric flight all landings are dead stick landings but the windmilling prop creates drag and helps to slow it down after the throttle is closed so speed drops off fairly rapidly. I'm now having to re-learn my landing technique with my new Ready2Fly Venom as this is the first EDF I have flown and this does not have a prop to slow me down. My first three landings so far have been a little hairy to say the least. It just does not want to slow down when I shut the throttle.surprise

Alwyn

pete taylor27/08/2012 22:59:40
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353 forum posts
164 photos
Hi Peter. I haven't flown a camel, but from experience with DR1's and other tricky ground handling models, fixing the wheels to a common axle that is allowed to rotate most definitely tamed most of the beasties at the expense of limiting the ability to turn whilst taxing. Forms a fixed differential on effect. It's worth a try and a cheap fix if it works.
Cheers, Pete
Ian Jones27/08/2012 23:47:50
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3220 forum posts
1397 photos

Hmm, as Ken says those landings in the video are too fast. Once the wheels contact the ground there should not be enough speed left for it to fly again even after a bounce.

I don't have a definitive answer but you may like to try trying not to land. Huh? What I mean is make the same approach as in the video only getting lower earlier and as the main U/c is about an inch above the grass keep gently applying more elevator to try and keep it an inch above the grass. It will probably fly on for some distance like this because it will not land until it is good and ready. It will be a three pointer (provided you have enough elevator range) and the elevator will be more effective at holding the tail down.

If it doesn't want to come down when you do this then perhaps the tickover is too fast or the prop pitch too coarse.

If even on a dead stick it tends to suddenly drop it's nose at low speed then it could be nose heavy too.

Hope I've mentioned something useful.

bouncebounce crunch28/08/2012 04:41:17
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1739 forum posts
212 photos

find some videos of the full size and you will notice they land very slowly and use lots of wagging on the rudder on the roll out that is the only solutions I could come up with maybe a bit of toe in on the undercarriage might help like some other tail draggers.

I hope you find a solution your models sound and look great.

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