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Kilma foam board from Screwfix

I bought it locally, easy peasy. :¬)

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Chuck Plains11/11/2012 16:29:22
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As I don't shop on the interwebs (unless I build up a paypal balance) I happily found this foam board available from my local Screwfix store. Order it for next day collection, or they can deliver for a minimal fee.

£27.50 for a pack of 8 boards 6x1000x750mm!

Well it would have been rude not to buy some!

Arrived next day,

kilma pack.jpg

Take a peek,

kilma foam board pack.jpg

Ready, steady, ........

fresh kilma board.jpg

Chuck Plains11/11/2012 16:48:38
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It has a shiny side just like Depron.

kilma shiny.jpg

Uhu POR works on it, but so does Gorilla Glue, hot melt glue, double sided tape, epoxy resin. Normal CA glue appears to vaguely attack it, but not for very long and sticks it well, almost like welding! Try it first. I have some Rocket foam safe CA, and it doesn't seem to work too well on Kilma, it stays wet for ages. (maybe it has passed it's 'use by date/shelf life'

what glue kilma.jpg

I also just tried some Bostic Glu&Fix all purpose clear, and it eats Kilma. As expected.

Chuck Plains11/11/2012 17:01:00
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It folds nicely after taping the dull side, just like I've read that  Depron does. You can paint it directly with acrylic paints. It burns rapidly. (I just tried that! devil )

 

Wings.

My first attempt, each wing has a a slightly different airfoil shape, but not too bad. Both flat ish underneath.

armin style kilma.jpg

 

But I'm very pleased with these. ( I may have them framed)

nice airfoil kilma.jpg

I made multiple scores on the inner (shiny side) face, before bending, and also sanded both of the trailing inner edge surfaces to a fine pointed angle before Gorilla glueing and clampimg them gently together between flat ply boards that I chose specially for the purpose.

Edited By Chuck Planes on 11/11/2012 17:21:59

Edited By Chuck Planes on 11/11/2012 17:25:56

Chuck Plains11/11/2012 17:19:12
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Scoring my Kilma board.

A Pizza wheel is perfect. You can score it lightly, or heavily, or several times. If your score lines are heavy and close to gether, like some of mine here (5mm apart) it will crack. But as this was the inner face, with tape fully covering the other side, it's not a problem. And, as per advice from WAYNE RC on Youtube, you could run some hot glue into the leading edge fold/score/crack, then quickly fold it into position, and it should be really strong.

100_1676.jpg

 

Mmmm! Shineyyyy! smile p

Kilma does curl up towards the taped side, but as you fold it and glue the faces together, the curl disappears. So beware on single tickness tail and stabilizer, as they may end up curved. Not such a problem on the stab. And, if you double the thickness for the tail, sticking the two pieces shiney side to shiney or dull side to dull side, they will straighten each other out. Just af if they had been attending group therapy! ROFL

100_1679.jpg

Edited By Chuck Planes on 11/11/2012 17:19:56

Edited By Chuck Planes on 11/11/2012 17:20:37

Chuck Plains11/11/2012 18:07:09
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Plus, these boards are NOT flat!!! Even before you tape them. And even small-ish pieces sometimes appear to have a curve to them, often in both directions! So be aware of that.

Kilma responds quite well to heat before bending. I haven't tried it without any tape on the outer surface yet.

I bought a brilliant hair drier from Argos. It apparently has six settings!! But at it's max setting it will melt the foam !!!!!!!!!!!

I made this, sort of under cambered, wing, kind of as an experiment, and also because I found that one of my first tries at a pair of wings saw me making the LE fold 5mm off position on one. (from the position I intended to fold it anyway).

under camber sort of.jpg

Acrylic painted.

under camber painted.jpg

So I thought I'd have a go with the heat bending. Both surfaces were heat bent before glueing the trailing edge. The bending method was awkward and not particularly easy, so I deliberately-ish forgot how I did it, as I will think of a better way next time. That's mostly due to me not developing a satisfactory way of securing/clamping the main part of the foam before bending the bendy bit, and also not too happy about my way of achieving a uniform shape yet.

But it's all good clean, sticky, fun!!

Martyn K11/11/2012 22:15:31
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4868 forum posts
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Hi CP,

Just as a matter of interest, what is the board supposed to be used for?

Martyn

Chuck Plains12/11/2012 06:53:21
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1096 forum posts
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Oops, sorry peeps, I didn't post any links to the product.

Screwfix appear to be the only outlet at the moment, but I believe the foam is made in Poland as there was an advert for a Polish compamy inside the package.

Kilma Foam Boards are used with under floor heating kits

GrahamC12/11/2012 07:41:37
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1229 forum posts
196 photos

Interesting thread! I've noticed this stuff on the Screwfix web site befre and wondered how it compares with Depron. [After all, it is the same 'stuff' - an xps product and made for the same purpose]

Be interesting to know your opinion having played with it; is it a realistic alternative to Depron?

I havn't tried it because my LMS sells Depron for £4.50 a sheet, so this only saves just over a quid a sheet, and if it were awful....

That said, a huge percentage of the members of the forum live within range of a Screwfix branch, so if it is a real alternative, you may be doing us all a favour for checking it out!

bouncebounce crunch12/11/2012 08:01:18
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1739 forum posts
212 photos

Chuckers it actually looks very good with undercamber or simetrical. this is what modeling is all about (unless you are a boy up to and beyond getting the Queen's congrats.) Having a go at some experimentation. LOVE IT.

Chuck Plains12/11/2012 18:49:03
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1096 forum posts
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So far, I've only crahsed two different sets of Kilma wings. One flat pair and one with big dihedral, and the wings are still in one piece, while the stick type fuse snapped in half. I'm takin the undercamber one to work one day this week, rubber banded to an EPE packing foam fuse, just to chuck the thing across the field out the back. If that even vaguely flies, I'll finish it off with a pusher set up and bounce that for a while till I can fly better!

Chuck Plains18/11/2012 09:10:42
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1096 forum posts
244 photos

Still haven't chucked that plane yet, but anyhoo, here's what happens to Kilma 1 week+ after cutting from the main sheet.

kilma curl.jpg

I don't have the space to store this stuff flat, so I'm going to have to make up some sort of vertical rack that will gently clamp the sheets against the wall for flatness. The remaining two sheets still in the box have also curled somewhat. DOH! But at least it seems to disappear if you 'work' the foam into a camber or foil etc. I haven't made a fuselage with this stuff yet.

I tried curling once on an ice rink, it was fun, but didn't look like this.

jmb04918/11/2012 22:08:49
10 forum posts

Chuck,

I am ordering some Klima tomorrow before they get wise and the price goes up !

Screwfix part 75113. It looks like it bends a little bit easier than Depron (!) so I can try a variety of Ed Oborn's Armin wings... and of course a Cargo Twin by foamandtape, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gPrRV9u81eo#l plans by LarryRoss. ..

.Introduction: Ed @ Experimental Airlines - YouTube

ps No need to be worried by bendy foam. Just think what a sheet of Alumin(i)um alloy wobbles like .. they make the real ones from that ..wink 2

jb

ps Just love that giant cutting board !

Chuck Plains02/12/2012 12:31:43
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1096 forum posts
244 photos

Hey jmb0

I'm just adding another couple of pics and info of more experiments.

Hair drier bending?

This piece was slowly bent to approx a 90deg angle with heat only. Then tape was applied at 90degrees to the bend with the tape running onto the under surface by 30mm or so. The bend was gently completed with more heat, until I could stick tape accross the two closing sides to hold it. More heat was applied. Then all was cooled with the hair drier on the coolest setting. All tape was removd after cooling.

Bend held in glueing position.

fuse bend.jpg

Spring back.

loose bend.jpg

Short pieces un-taped can be cold formed round a broomstick without cracking, but much wider than 60mm and it'll crack.

bend and crack.jpg

The long pieces in the pic were originally one, but after the narrow end cracked during my cold forming attempt, I cut it off, and managed to get the longer piece to just 45/50degrees before tiny cracks started appearing on the outer surface. Hehe, I think I was getting a bit hasty as me fingers were getting warm to say the least! I'll try again later with another piece fully taped on the outside.

Yeahm this hair drier will actually melt the foam if I'm not careful!

Cub style with under camber a bit like a windsurf sail. Cos I also windsurf ok?

undercam cub style.jpg

Edited By Chuck Plains on 02/12/2012 12:34:07

Edited By Chuck Plains on 02/12/2012 12:48:36

Edited By Chuck Plains on 02/12/2012 12:49:19

jmb04902/12/2012 15:45:01
10 forum posts

Ah ! Sorry for apparent lack of interest but lost this thread out in the ether .. ..

I constructed an almost matching pair of Armin wings of 7,5" chord by 750mm witth for a F&T cargo twin, or alternatively a 1:12 semi-scale 56" GAL Fleet Shadower. That scale lets me use 1300Kv Blue Wonders with 8" props. A pain to enlarge what plans that are available on the interweb on my 3 in1 Brother but I make Jack Benny look generous. I clear-taped the wing leading edge on the bend, then taped from each trailing edge to give an overlap AND THEN another clear tape right over theL.E. position to make sure the draught doesn't unpeel it. So 4 layers. 2 rolls for 99p from my favourite shop AND Uhu general purpose glue ( the stuff that makes Depron fizz ) for 99p, strangely. Just can't think of the name of the Place .. .. Correct me if i'm wrong (the tubes are the same colour ), but I THINK Uhu Ordinaire sticks this light green Klima foam as good as Uhu POR and at 40% the price .. .. Already mostly built F/Shadower fuselage from blue foam from Hampshire Insulations, Marwell (near the Zoo ) and Cargo Twin from Klima. Tried heat application on test stuff, but tricky to get quantity of heat in the right place without cooking it. Practice, practice .. ..

Chuck Plains02/12/2012 18:36:07
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1096 forum posts
244 photos

No worries jmb0, I don't recall receiving the alert for your reply, otherwise I'd have responded sooner too. embarrassed

Yes, heating it for bending is problematical. I'm still trying to think up a repeatable method so that I can get curves to match on each wing.

Be sure to keep the shiny side to the inside curve.

And check this beauty of a bending jig out on RC Groups

Apparently he has heated nichrome wire running inside tubes at the LE. Also a YT video. Looks like different jigs/formers for different leading edge shapes. It's a lot of work to make the jig, but looks worth it to me.

I mean, theory is that if everyting is symmetrical, the maiden flight won't require any trim changes. Right?

Chuck Plains02/12/2012 18:44:17
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1096 forum posts
244 photos

Oh yes, I tried Bostic all purpose glue and it attacked Kilma foam. For sticking big areas, maybe double thickness requirements, PVA clamped overnight is great. And Gorilla Glue scraped out to it's absolute minimum cover and well spread clamping is brilliant.

jmb04902/12/2012 19:57:39
10 forum posts

New to this stuff. Posted lenghty reply to your E-mail and was not delivered.

Try again.

Heated tube LE could be with less complicated heat adjustable hot air gun.

Flat bottom airfoil formers jigged up & wrapped with thin steel sheet as on the wife's spin dryer drum.

Tube retained for smooth L/Edge. Holes for flow of hot air drilled in all airfoil profiles (ply ? )

Haven't thought of how to hold it on the deck yet. but after bending a block of foam of the same profile could be plonked on top & weightad down.

Looked at the old Nekk and disappointed depth of only 15,5 inches for depron baking jig.

Fancy building a foam Antoinette but a bit bigger than that.

Will check that 99p UHU that sticks Klima wasn't really Por. Tube is too scrunched up to see label.

jmb049

jmb04902/12/2012 20:00:08
10 forum posts

Oven is NEFF. Concentrate on what you're writing , laddie ..

Chuck Plains03/12/2012 22:51:22
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1096 forum posts
244 photos

jmb0 I've PM'ed you my email address.

Hmm. Re the heat gun/hair drier. The under camber Cub style wing I showed was formed by clamping the foam to the table under two pieces of 15mm ply board, with a 2 inch plastic drain pipe attached for the foam to curve over. I had approx 45mm of foam overhanging the edge. I heated it with the hair drier and pushed it up around the round pipe to shape it with another piece of wood with a handle on the back. It actually took ages to get it 'eventually' right and made my arm ache! :¬D

But the hot air is problematical to control, I was waving the hd all over the foam and then gently pressing it upwards around the pipe to shape it. And I found that even with what I thought was a goodgeneral coverage of heat, I still got more curve at one end than the other. So I'm thinkning that a fixed hot air stream will present the problem of being hotter nearer to the source. With the hot wire type former, at least the heat will be guaranteed to be uniform along the length of the bend.

As the recommended temperature for bending Depron etc is around 70 to 80c I've thought that instead of the oven treatment, (which I don't fancy at all) I might hot water in a straight sided jug or whatever with the foam strapped to the outside like the oven method. Ok for small stuff anyway.

Hey, how about a metre long piece of ceramic or cast iron drain pipe, sealed at one end, with a kettle element fitted to heat the water? Curved 2mtr wings etc?

Pete.

Chuck Plains09/12/2012 22:38:33
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1096 forum posts
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I've seen some peeps talking about strapping their depron to cylindrical objects and baking it for 5 mins at 200C. Or something like that. So I thought I'd combine that style method with the boiling water method.

So I gleaned an old pasta jar from the recycling centre today, and, hey presto! Bent Kilma foam in 5 minutes on the table.

I also tried it on some 3mm foam from the recycling.

hot jar.jpg

It works.

hot bent 3 and 6mm.jpg

But my 3mm stuf creased on the inside curve.

hot bent 3mm with creases.jpg

Turned the 3mm 90 degrees and it didn't crease noticeably.

3mm bent no crease.jpg

I wish I knew what this 3mm stuff was called. Can't find it on the webs yet.

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