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787 problems

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Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 08:03:39
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Emergency landing for another 787, and another one in Japan again where they have grounded the 787s. Seems like another battery fault, but this incident will probably be looked at more seriously because it was in the air and some passengers did get mild injuries.

CS

Simon Chambers16/01/2013 09:50:19
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Afaik, some passengers always get mild injuries when jumping off escape slides. It's a bit like when an airbag goes off, you often get mild injuries - but it saves you from more serious ones!

Si.

Chris Bott - Moderator16/01/2013 11:23:10
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Doesn't look good for the 787 does it?

I wonder where the line is drawn between "teething problems" and something more serious?

bouncebounce crunch16/01/2013 11:26:55
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The Dreamliner might be in some serious trouble with mid air "Battery fires" becoming a serious problem over the last six months. several have been no passenger flights, but! what next???

Lithium Ion, i believe.

Edited By bouncebouncecrunch on 16/01/2013 11:28:24

Ben B16/01/2013 11:41:21
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Or it could just be that they fancy suing for their injuries. I'm a bit cynical nowadays, particularly after

**LINK**

In my experience when someone has injured their neck that badly they don't walk out of the car and get into someone else's. Whereas it sometimes takes people a few minutes to calm down enough to work out they can fabricate some illness and sue someone....

Re the OP, would be interesting to know what batteries they use. I suspect if it's Lipos the "funny smell" mentioned in the press would be a well known one to most leccy fliers

Pete B - Moderator16/01/2013 13:53:37
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Taken from that BBC webpage:

'The source of that fire was the 787's lithium Ion battery pack. All the way back in 2007, the US Federal Aviation Administration expressed concern about the installation of Lithium Ion batteries on board the 787 because of their known problem with so-called "thermal runaway". It's a problem that has caused mobile phones and laptop computers to catch fire in the past.

The 787 is not the only aircraft to use Lithium Ion battery packs. The Airbus A380 uses a smaller number. And the upcoming Airbus A350 will use a much larger number' (my emphasis)

I'm sure this issue is concentrating everyone's minds in Seattle and Toulouse. All new a/c have teething problems but this seems to be about fundamental battery technology.

I hope it can be resolved before any more serious incidents occur......

Pete

Edited By Pete B on 16/01/2013 13:54:31

Simon Chambers16/01/2013 14:02:18
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I would imagine the enclosure that they are in is designed to contain the fire if the pack failed.

It does make you wonder why these packs are catching fire, considering that their properties are well understood after at least a decade in the consumer enviroment. They must be either getting too hot, are being overcharged or even a manufacturing fault within the pack cells.

Interesting article here on the failure modes of a LiIon cell (which LiPo is a type of): http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm

I find this visualisation most interesting:

A very small window that the cell can be operated in - this is what the Battery Management System (BMS)/Protection Circuit Module (PCM) should be keep it in.

Another article on battery protection methods here: http://www.mpoweruk.com/protection.htm

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 16/01/2013 14:02:59

Edited By Simon Chambers on 16/01/2013 14:03:33

Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 17:27:27
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It's not just the batteries on the 787 that have been problematic. Fuel leaks, brake problems, a cockpit window break and the electrical problems. I think it needs a serious look at now, it has become too common to say it is 'just teething problems'.

I think the 787 is a lovely aircraft, one of the prettiest sub-sonic airliner and a potentially good aircraft for airlines (but I don't like the name 'Dreamliner', unimaginative and annoyingly glorifying in my opinion) . But this needs to be sorted out, otherwise everyone will suddenly think the 787 is dangerous and when Airbus bring the A350XWB (which looks similar to the 787, but more passengers) it could wipe the floor with it in sales terms.

CS

Lima Hotel Foxtrot16/01/2013 17:47:06
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Personally, I think that these aircraft are so advanced that they have become self-aware. As a result, they are passive-aggresively objecting to the fact that they have been given such a wet name as "Dreamliner."

Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 17:49:32
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Posted by Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 16/01/2013 17:47:06:

Personally, I think that these aircraft are so advanced that they have become self-aware. As a result, they are passive-aggresively objecting to the fact that they have been given such a wet name as "Dreamliner."

Very good! That made me laugh!

CS

Simon Chaddock16/01/2013 19:05:54
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Is the A380 doing any better?

Airbus admit they have not yet implemented a solution so the wings currently being built as well as all those flying will have to modified at several £million a go.

Not a good sales pitch!

Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 19:13:51
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Yeah I've seen that, but at least they are sorting it out. Also, Emirates now have a specialist A380 terminal which shows dedication to the aircraft. BA are getting 12 A380s this year (ad 24 787s).

CS

Josip Vrandecic -Mes16/01/2013 19:21:47
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The manufacturers of sophisticated equipment,and so for aviation,no system,no money,no patience for long-term productions test and verification, above mentioned,because, a money is the only factor and indicator of progress sad

CS ,where are those days,when the Concorde flew....question

Simon Chambers16/01/2013 19:23:34
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Lets not forget the Qantas A380 accident with its engines that wasn't far from bringing the whole aircraft down.

Also the A350 XWB is has development problems of its own - but as its not in active service, its not seen.

Si.

Simon Chambers16/01/2013 19:26:48
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Posted by Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 16/01/2013 19:21:47:

The manufacturers of sophisticated equipment,and so for aviation,no system,no money,no patience for long-term productions test and verification, above mentioned,because, a money is the only factor and indicator of progress sad

CS ,where are those days,when the Concorde flew....question

Let's not forget that development tools were pretty basic when Concorde was developed than today. CAD, CFD was all in its infancy - Concorde was mostly designed with slide rules!

This allows manufacturers to simulate and test far more things, a lot quicker than any Concorde engineer could.

Also modern aircraft don't push all the boundaries out as Concorde did.

Si.

Pete B - Moderator16/01/2013 19:45:10
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Posted by ConcordeSpeedbird on 16/01/2013 17:27:27:

It's not just the batteries on the 787 that have been problematic. Fuel leaks, brake problems, a cockpit window break and the electrical problems. I think it needs a serious look at now, it has become too common to say it is 'just teething problems'.

I'm sure the manufacturers are looking at all these problems very seriously, CS. Teething problems they are - if they are not, then Boeing have no option but to ditch the project, scrap all the aircraft and start again - and that isn't going to happensmile

The travelling public will have forgotten about these little issues in a couple of years time, probably when the A350 has its own very public teething troubles!

Pete

Tom Sharp16/01/2013 21:00:13
387 forum posts

For Sale. Lipo batteries, little used, some new, going very cheap.

Contact Boeing Corporation.

Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 22:26:56
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Posted by Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 16/01/2013 19:21:47:

CS ,where are those days,when the Concorde flew....question

I never saw them, too young, never saw her fly, only those last flights on TVsadcrying. But still, the inspiration from that wonderful aeroplane drives me forwards.

I'm sure it'll be sorted out. I hope the A350XWB does not have too many problems (all planes do), since I may try and work for Airbus in the future (and get them making supersonic airliners!!!). Boeing will sort it out.

Nice one Tom laugh

CS

Peter Jenkins16/01/2013 22:57:53
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Re the comment on Dreamliner, I don't know how many of you know but the adoption of a carbon fibre fuselage has allowed Boeing to run the cabin altitude of the 787 at 6,000 ft and not the usual 8,000 ft. Allied to this is a higher water vapour content in the cabin air as there is no metal (well not much) to suffer from corrosion. The combination of these two factors will make the passengers' experience of flying in a 787 very much more enjoyable. Why? Well, when you descend from 6,000 ft altitude it places a lot less stress on your ears and having more water vapour in the cabin air will stop your eyes drying out quite so much not to mention your skin - 8 hours in very dry air is not good for either. Boeing has also designed the cabin to give a much more open aspect than current aircraft since the fuselage is larger and the windows are also larger as fatigue is not a problem with the fuselage (well - I expect that service experience may show other problems that will arise with a CF pressure vessel over a long period of time). The air in the cabin will be pressurirsed by electrical systems and not rely on bleed air from the engine compressors so no occasions of smells finding their way from engine to cabin.

Does that qualify as a dream of a passenger? I would think so and I hope that it will not be too long before I can fly in one. Sadly, I never got a Concorde flight but I did get to sit in a cockpit of an operational BA Concorde.

Concorde Speedbird16/01/2013 23:23:38
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My dream flight would be getting to my place in 3 hours rather than 8 at Mach 2, so dry air is not a problem anyway!smiley

It reminds me that when Concorde (somehow) was in operation because she heated up and cooled on every flight, the airframes stayed in superb condition and did not corrode. And at Mach 2 you got about 10 inches more leg room due to heat expansion!

That is quite interesting, innovative too. I'd like to go in one but only as much as I'd like to go on a 737, or A320 etc (in fact I'd prefer to go in a Dragon Rapide!). I still don't like the name, maybe they should have called it the 'Dampliner'!

Must have been great to sit in an operational BA Concorde cockpit, small down the front there isn't it?!

CS

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