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Bistormer 60" (A Barnstormer with more ribs)

Barnstormer with more ribs

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Colin Leighfield15/02/2014 17:37:42
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5952 forum posts
2492 photos

It's definitely got something of the RE8 about it, I couldn't resist sticking a Lewis gun in there somewhere!

Danny Fenton15/02/2014 18:37:29
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Hi Chris that is a great shot and the fus construction is very similar to that, what ever it is? On the one in the pic the upper external longeron goes all the way to the tail where as on my plan it says it ends at F8 which is the pilots head rest bulkhead.....

I may be confusing people by referring to the outer packing pieces as doublers. They are on the outside of the fus sides and build up the shape whilst also adding strength. To me they are still doublers.

Here is the plan, I hope Eddie doesn't mind me showing this, it does show how the fus is built up, provided somebody colors it in for you as I have wink 2

bs 119.jpg

The orange is the main 3/16 side, and attached to this are the 3/16 x 3/8 longerons that go all the way from the nose to the tail, yellow upper outline.

On top of the basic side sections are the red cheek sections and the yellow wing, lets call it doubler, but its on the outside.

I think the underlying orange section should end flush with F5 as it does in the picture Chris has shown. The triangular bit that overhangs is the section that is causing all the stress in the lower longeron.

Cheers

Danny

kc15/02/2014 19:20:36
6032 forum posts
168 photos
Danny, I wonder if the " underlying orange section" is slightly bent in and its the outer "yellow" doubler which fits into the notch in F5? Otherwise perhaps the lower edge of the yellow doubler is sanded away to meet the stringer and is so thin it bends easily? Maybe its deliberately cracked?

Nowadays its so expensive to buy thin birch ply for doublers but it might be worth it for simple strong construction! So many Boddington designs didn't use a ply doubler but the thick balsa doublers makes it difficult to bend the rear fuselage in. My experience is that a ply doubler model is rebuildable after a crash but a balsa box type has nothing left straight enough and not oil soaked to rebuild ( dont ask me how I know this!)

I see that Phil Winks made his Barnstormer forward section as a complete 'box' and then built the rear built up part separately and attached it.
Danny Fenton16/02/2014 01:00:12
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9103 forum posts
3944 photos

Hi KC you have to remember I have the instructions and templates so the parts I have identified are correct, and I am pretty sure the placement is too. There is no mention in the instructions about cracking or bending a section

Phil did indeed make his forward section seperate, I think that is Phils interpretation of the drawings, again I defer to the instructions given my DB S&S they suggest the build is traditional full length sides as I have shown.

Anyway thanks for all your suggestions I have added everything I can and this is the result, it all fits the drawings and seems to work. I ended up feathering the end of the triangular upper longeron into the underlying longeron at F8.

bs 120.jpg

bs 121.jpg

bs 122.jpg

There is a lot of planing and sanding to do yet, but I will wait until the upper sheeting and nose blocks are in place.

Cheers and thanks again for all your suggestions thumbs up

Danny

jeff2wings16/02/2014 19:12:41
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789 forum posts
1869 photos

It's interesting to see the way that people have interpreted the (less than perfect ) drawings, I think every one that is being built is a unique version !

I am just wondering if you might have some issues pulling in the sides to fit F1 it's not clear from the pics if it's already tapered in ??

Danny Fenton16/02/2014 19:20:30
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Hi Jeff I have pulled F2 in, thats the main bulkhead for the motor in my case there is still some spring in the front so shouldnt be a problem. I would like to see how others have tackled the BiStormer that's for sure. It seems very different to the Barnstormer of a similar size.
Cheers
Danny
Danny Fenton17/02/2014 00:00:34
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3944 photos

Managed to get the other side to the same point. Added a longeron under the centre rear as it would add a nice detail and stop the covering sticking to the box section. I know it's not on the plan but it just had to be done wink 2

bs 123.jpg

Actually is it a longeron or a stringer?

Cheers

Danny

Edited By Danny Fenton on 17/02/2014 00:01:32

Colin Leighfield17/02/2014 00:12:29
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5952 forum posts
2492 photos

Stringer? I always thought of a longeron as having a structural function, but I've not really thought about it before.

Edited By Colin Leighfield on 17/02/2014 00:13:03

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator17/02/2014 00:25:13
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15748 forum posts
1460 photos

Ah - one man's longeron is another man's stringer!

The fascinating thing about this is that here you are - an experienced builder - with several others also experienced looking on - and we still don't have a definitive reading of this drawing. We have interpretations that obviously work - but whether they are what the designer intended is another matter! As I say, really interesting reading - if like me your a spectator! One advantage of the Dawn Flyer is that Lyndsay's still very much with us to ask!

But I think the lesson here is the way you've approached this Danny. Carefully thinking it out and implementing a sensible solution. There is a good lesson there for all plan builders - because we all face these sort of problems from time to time "what the hell does he mean me to do here?"! I suppose the important thing is not to let it flummox you too much and simply work out a viable solution.

Nice work Danny and beautifully explained.

BEB

Danny Fenton17/02/2014 11:18:05
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3944 photos

Ah well as long as we all know what we mean I guess it doesn't matter smile

Thx BEB this is possibly not a plan to build from, was okay when you were given lots of numbered bits and a set of instructions. I think I have it as DB intended, but there are a couple of areas that are not clear and you have to assume that they should just be "faired" into the surrounding structure. It seems to be working anyway.

The structure is both stiff and very light, but that is probably because I am controlling the wood selection wink 2 I know it has put a bigger dent in my wood pile than I expected, and will have to spend time in the SLEC tent soon.

Might give their mail order system a go and see how good they are at choosing wood grades.....

Cheers

Danny

kc17/02/2014 12:41:05
6032 forum posts
168 photos
Lots of Boddington designs are very similar in construction and many are clearly enlarged plans. There are so many that I reckon that Boddo may just have handed the plans to one of his DB assistants to build. Therefore as experienced builders they just did the obvious thing to make it work. The actual prototype builders are still around to ask......could it be Dave Toyer who built these first? He is pictured in many Boddo books & articles with these models so I guess he may have built them.

Although there seem to be a few parts that are unclear at least these DB hand drawn plans are accurate unlike many modern plans which seem to have large inaccuracies when they go from designer to publishers. So nobody should be deterred from buying DB plans -they are at least as good as most others.
Danny Fenton17/02/2014 13:13:19
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Hi KC yes I agree, if you ignore the templates, the plans seem accurate. I think my concern is that a rectangle on this plan is referred to as Fx no reference to material type or size, so you have to work it out. This is more akin to an assembly diagram. I have seen the 52" plan and it contains dimensions for the materials so is easier to build from. Not a problem for me, but we are supposed to be setting an example for those not familar with building from a plan.

Cheers

Danny

kc17/02/2014 13:55:24
6032 forum posts
168 photos
Well the Richtofen plan pack (which I acquired years before Eddie took over) came with instructions which mention part numbers with material sizes. I would have expected current plans to have the same as they come with 'previous kit instructions'

I suppose we are lucky to have these classic plans available still - the RCM (USA ) plans seem unobtainable now and nobody seems to know why!
Danny Fenton17/02/2014 16:24:34
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9103 forum posts
3944 photos

Absolutely! Long may they contunue to be available thumbs up

Well I think it was Nigel that termed the phrase shanking a shot in golf, not a golfer myself but I know enough about it to know that when I did the top wing I must have had my eyes shut! In golfing terms I guess I buried the ball in the wall of a bunker crying 2

Not sure I should show you but I guess this should be a warts n' all build, only that way will you know how to wriggle out of the jaws of defeat. I seem to do that a lot these days crook

Anyway, the fus is at a stage where I need to fit the cabanes, now these are unforgiving chunks of alloy and weigh nearly as much as the model! when I positioned them under the top wing things were clearly not right. The holes in one wing were 15mm in from the the rib and 30mm in from the rib on the other wing panel. so the cabanes were no where near the wing holes. I had a pretty good idea of what I had done but there was nothing for it, the sheeting had to be hacked off sad

bs 124.jpg

When I peered inside, the error that I had made was obvious, I had fitted the blind nut plates 180 degrees out on one panel. Stupid mistake, I really should know better embarrassed The blue dot indicates where the hole should be.

Anyway tears aside, what to do. I gave the plates and the anchor nuts a really good shove and they are not going anywhere, good on the one hand, but not helping me get out of the bunker...

bs 125.jpg

It looked like there was just enough room to squeese another plate and anchor nut alongside the errant ones. This is exactly what I did.

Now I just have to repair the holes......

Cheers

Danny

Nigel Day17/02/2014 16:29:28
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1158 forum posts
213 photos

Ooh, out of the bunker and landed near the hole.

Still chance of a birdie......

Of course, the plane will now fly with a list to one side, but hey, that's just another little bit of trimming eh Danny? cheeky

Danny Fenton17/02/2014 16:37:00
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9103 forum posts
3944 photos

If it flies at all with this shoddy workmanship, it will be amazing......

When I check the lateral balance I may need to add a little ballast to a wing tip, but I doubt the weight of a couple of anchor nuts and a small dollop of epoxy will alter things too much. It is unnecessary weight and that annoys me wink 2

But at least I am still on the green thumbs up

Cheers

Danny

kc17/02/2014 16:54:30
6032 forum posts
168 photos
Full marks to Danny for showing us all how to get out of trouble. It is very reassuring to know the experts get it wrong sometimes.
Knowing my luck I would hack into the wrong wing and move the 'good' part to the wrong position and be in double the trouble!


I suppose the lesson to be learnt is to get the model straight and correct aerodynamically whatever it does to the looks of the model. But no doubt Danny will repair the damage so we 'can't see the join'......lets all watch how it's done and take note because sooner or later we all have this sort of sheet balsa repair to make.
Danny Fenton17/02/2014 17:10:14
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9103 forum posts
3944 photos

"Knowing my luck I would hack into the wrong wing and move the 'good' part to the wrong position and be in double the trouble! "

Had to check I hadn't gone and done just that KC wink 2 Phew I hadn't!

I wish you wouldn't keep calling me an expert lol I am just bumbling along like everybody else disgust

Anyway the repairs to the upper surface took seconds, as if you look carefully the sheeting was cut off with heavy chamfers and I used a scalpel. This means no wood is lost, and the chamfer gives us a lip to glue the cut off pieces back down to.

here is the wing after the repair

bs 128.jpg

can't see the repairs?

bs 126.jpg

bs 127.jpg

How's that Nigel, have I avoided dropping a shot wink 2

Cheers

Danny

kc17/02/2014 17:58:44
6032 forum posts
168 photos
A hole in one?
Very neat.

I remember lifting a floorboard something like that when we had a pipe leak!
john stones 117/02/2014 18:03:50
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10577 forum posts
1480 photos

I can see it Danny surprise

its just a pimple, not big enough to be a wart wink

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